Mastodawn

Markus Geiger Aug 7, 2023

+1 to @jwz 's argument that replies to posts on mastodon should be treated similarly to comments on blogs

https://www.jwz.org/blog/2023/08/mastodons-mastodonts/

Mastodon's Mastodon'ts

There are a few fundamentally broken things about how Mastodon posts work that are terrible vectors for abuse, as well as being bad for basic usability. Maybe they are fixable, I don't know. To be clear: I am a fan of Mastodon. I have been enjoying my time there much more than I ever enjoyed Twitter or Facebook or Instagram. And I am 100% in the "I won't touch anything Jack Dorsey has ...

Dr. Ruchira S. Datta Aug 6, 2023

@mfowler @jwz Hear, hear!

Alan Hicks Aug 6, 2023

@mfowler @jwz +1

Felix Denbratt Aug 6, 2023

@mfowler @jwz very interesting suggestion - but would also come with other cons, such as making it more difficult to start very valid discussions around posts that the post author might not support. Also federation might be impacted since it might then not be possible to comment on federated posts from other software than Mastodon.

I think I prefer how it works right now - but I look forward to follow these discussions. :-)

jwz Aug 6, 2023

@fede @mfowler
If you want to have "discussions around posts that the post author might not support" then you do that by making your own top-level post to YOUR OWN followers. You are not owed amplification and audience and reach by the person with whom you disagree. Post to your own followers. Canonical and not at all hypothetical example: post author thinks that Jews and Blacks are fine and you do not.

Felix Denbratt Aug 6, 2023

@jwz @mfowler I considered that as well, but that would mean a more fragmented discussion.

Since your example was a bit extreme here is a similar example to consider: what if a homophobic politician is spreading a dangerous idea for a reform and it’s important to spread awareness about. That would be much more efficient if you are able to comment on the posts without the original author being able to censor that.

Open discussions are quite valuable even if you would disagree with their point and giving the original author power to censor critics might not be in the best interest of this platform.

If you want only your view and the comments of people who think exactly like you to be visible, then there already is a medium for that: blogs and websites

Louie Mantia, Jr.Aug 6, 2023

@fede Your suggestion is… “If you don't like it, leave." Twitter did that, and the only the worst stayed.

Every post is not an open invitation for public discourse. Jerks should not feel entitled to piggyback on others’ popularity.

There are solutions for if there's a horrible *root* user post (even if they remove replies). An instance or user can block that user's entire instance or just the user.

But there's no recourse for if someone's annoying in the replies. They just get free attention.

Louie Mantia, Jr.Aug 6, 2023

@fede The idea that social media (for everyone) must be that anything goes in the comments is frankly kinda bs.

It's not just the most horrible comments that should be reported. Most of the problem I see is discourse that is just... needlessly hostile. No one's breaking any rules, they're just being obnoxious.

I don't think replies should be *deleted* but I do think they should be *detached*.

They shouldn't get the benefit of being seen by people who follow me for *my* posts.

Sören Aug 6, 2023

@fede @jwz @mfowler

> I considered that as well, but that would mean a more fragmented discussion.

That’s a feature, not a bug.

> what if a homophobic politician is spreading a dangerous idea for a reform and it’s important to spread awareness about.

Then replying to them in exasperation accomplishes absolutely nothing.

chris martens Aug 6, 2023

@fede @jwz @mfowler what you’re describing sounds an awful lot like a quote-post, which also has the problem of directing abuse at OP. Unfortunately there doesn’t seem to be a good solution that works both for when replier vs replied-to holds more clout/power/visibility

Jesse Aug 6, 2023

@chrisamaphone @fede @jwz @mfowler I think the best compromise is to allow quote posts and unsolicited mentions by default, but a user can disable native quotes of their own posts (across the board or individually), and block annoying (or worse) mentioners. People can still make their case without access to the platform of the person they disagree with.

Leigh Garland Aug 6, 2023

@mfowler @jwz This doesn't feel like social media. Down voting maybe? But deleting replies feels a lot like a tool of those that want to silence dissent.

Leigh Garland Aug 6, 2023

@mfowler @jwz I feel like this is one of those cases where using extreme behaviour justifies creating behaviour that creates justification for more extreme behaviour. I.e

"I asked a question that I thought was reasonable, but the OP deleted it. What should I infer from this?"

jwz Aug 6, 2023

@toychicken @mfowler You should infer from that, the person to whom you are replying does not welcome you into their living room. If you have opinions on that, post them elsewhere.

Leigh Garland Aug 6, 2023

@jwz @mfowler Cool cool cool. So OP can state opinion and "own the conversation" but commenters are second-class citizens with no valid points unless they agree, or disagree the "correct way". Great way to create a state of power for those with 'reach' and silence those without.
That's not a living room, that's a podium.

jwz Aug 6, 2023

@toychicken Yes. You have correctly understood my position.

Sören Aug 6, 2023

@toychicken @mfowler @jwz

> What should I infer from this?

That you’re being shown the door.

Louie Mantia, Jr.Aug 6, 2023

@[email protected] @mfowler @jwz everyone has different reasons for using social media and there should be tools to help each of us achieve what we’d like to use it for. Simple as that.

Astro Aug 6, 2023

@mfowler @jwz The whole blog is interesting, thanks for the link!

Evan Prodromou Aug 6, 2023

"* top-level post comes with a package of metadata attached to it.
* Comments posted in reply to it are metadata.
* Preview thumbnail images are metadata.
* All of this metadata travels with the post.
* The posting instance is authoritative on what metadata is attached, and when it changes.
* Replying to a post means submitting that reply to the originating instance for consideration for inclusion in said metadata"

This is all how ActivityPub already works.

Evan Prodromou Aug 6, 2023

@mfowler @jwz there are three things that Mastodon doesn't do.

1. It doesn't fetch the canonical collection of replies when showing a thread.
2. It does not send out notifications to recipients of the original post when replies are received.
3. It does not look up OpenGraph link metadata before distribution.

All of which is to say: your suggestions are very valid. Implementation doesn't require major changes to the protocol, and changes to the Mastodon codebase will show results quickly.

squinky Aug 6, 2023

@evan @mfowler @jwz It sounds like #1 is there to keep smaller servers whose posts become popular from getting destroyed with too many queries.

It seems like there should be some kind of caching solution to that.

squinky Aug 6, 2023

@evan @mfowler @jwz also I wonder if doing this fundamental thing wrong is so baked into the system that at this point there’s no willingness to change it

LPS Aug 6, 2023

@evan
The collection of replies would be extremely welcome. I can't count how many times I see the same question asked in one thread.

@mfowler @jwz @ajswritesthings

Stefan Aug 6, 2023

@lps @evan @mfowler @jwz @ajswritesthings small servers should not be buried in API requests but there seems to be a lot of devs who says you can only trust the canonical source for the data. I wish there was a way to allow trusted servers to act as caches or middle ware.

Martin Fowler Aug 6, 2023

@evan @jwz I find it appropriately amusing that I read this post because it was boosted by someone I follow, (@judeswae) but this post is not yet present in my notifications.

Dan Hugo (雨果丹)(แดน)Aug 6, 2023

The assertions are a bit of a motte and bailey, with some very solid good points mixed in with what I will drastically simply to “this thing that is not a blog should be a blog.”

I have not posted yet to Followers Only (one of the standard Mastodon post options), does that hit anywhere near? How close to centralized Instagram-like should the pendulum swing, though?

My view, posting to a 3rd party platform has pros and cons, there is always 𝕏 to fall back on for great ideas…

jwz Aug 6, 2023

@DanHugo Blogs work, this doesn't. So yes. Be like blog.

Dan Hugo (雨果丹)(แดน)Aug 6, 2023

Everything should be a blog!
No simile, only metaphor.

I pondered checking this out, still might
https://github.com/tsileo/microblog.pub

Personally, I prefer self-publishing anyway, so I am not arguing against, just that your motte > your bailey.

GitHub - tsileo/microblog.pub: A self-hosted, single-user, ActivityPub powered microblog.

A self-hosted, single-user, ActivityPub powered microblog. - tsileo/microblog.pub

GitHub

KeroZelvin Aug 6, 2023

@mfowler @jwz Being able to delete a comment to one of your own posts seems like a super important feature! (I didn’t actually realize that wasn’t possible!)

Jan Wedel Aug 7, 2023

@mfowler @jwz How would it work with re-posting / boosting replies? Sometimes there are good relies to an original post that you want to share with followers.

jwz Aug 7, 2023

@stealthmusic I feel like "I am sharing a URL with my own followers" is a well-solved problem. (By every platform except Instagram or TikTok.)

Jan Wedel Aug 7, 2023

@jwz Hmm, never liked the URL sharing of Posts. When all clients properly support rendering a preview, it might work. Regarding boosting, I don’t know how this is implemented, but theoretically you could also boost a comment to post if the protocol lets you do this.

jwz Aug 7, 2023

@stealthmusic If something as absolutely fundamental as sharing a URL to a post doesn't do anything sensible, then the software sucks and must be fixed.

[ Taps headset ] ...I'm now being told...