Wolf HuetterothAug 5, 2023
Ever wondered if flies enjoy a carousel ride as much as we do? Wonder no more, it seems they do – flies play! Out now: https://biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2023.08.03.551880v2 (1/7)
Show threadMAHansonAug 7, 2023

@wolfhuette @arielframe how can one distinguish seeking passive movement for enjoyment vs. passive movement for e.g. instinctual pref for predator avoidance?

There are huge ethical implications to asserting flies have play-like behaviour, and it would demand a very thorough investigation of evidence of reward response (eg hormonal, neural).

Show threadAriel K. FrameAug 7, 2023
@MarkHanson @wolfhuette I think there are likely many contexts in which one could test whether this type of behaviour varies to determine more deeply what motivates flies to engage in it; be it enjoyment, utility, or both. For predator avoidance, testing with predator cues present may clarify. But, even if more testing reveals compelling evidence for this truly being play-like behaviour, for me this wouldn’t reach the threshold of altering ethical implications. Why would it for you?
Show threadMAHansonAug 7, 2023

@arielframe I think that's my point. The present title and interpretation asserts play-like behaviour, but part of that definition is that there is no apparent benefit to the individual. I'm not sure I'd assert PLB simply off a behavioural preference if I didn't have any data to interpret possible underlying reasons for the preference.

Also not really up to me whether PLB qualifies for ethics, but flies currently aren't "animals" per ethics boards, they're basically bio-robots.

Show threadMAHanson

@arielframe @wolfhuette for instance, the carousel image evokes play. But had this study used a rotating arranged set of leafy sticks, would we really default to viewing it as play?

What's shown is that some flies have a stochastic pref for landing on moving objects. It just seems to me, admittedly a non-ethologist, that titling the paper "Seeking voluntary passive movement in flies is play-like behavior" is extrapolating beyond what is shown.

Aug 7, 2023 at 8:03amWeb
Show threadAriel K. FrameAug 7, 2023
@MarkHanson @wolfhuette Their criterion 1 also says ‘immediate’. The Burghardt book they cite provides a lengthy explanation for the criteria used, and this includes much nuance that they don’t have space for in the paper. I think that there is enough ambiguity and controversy around the definition of 'play' that caveating the claim by calling it 'play-like' is sufficient for me. How play-like? Maybe minimally. That’s where further study is needed, with sticks and predators etc.
Show threadWolf HuetterothAug 7, 2023
@arielframe @MarkHanson This, basically. We intentionally used 'play-like', knowing how controversial it would be anyhow. And yes, we hope it leads to further study - many directions to explore! Flies are not the only ones, btw - here are some anecdotal cockatoos exhibiting stochastic landing on moving objects: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZiMMqcKalI
Wild little corellas get dizzy playfully taking turns spinning on wind vent (whirlybird) - part 2

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