Mastodawn

mattiloh Aug 7, 2023

Mastodon's Mastodon'ts.

There are a few fundamentally broken things about how Mastodon posts work that are terrible vectors for abuse, as well as being bad for basic usability. Maybe they are fixable, I don't know. To be clear: I am a fan of Mastodon....
https://jwz.org/b/ykC_

Mastodon's Mastodon'ts

There are a few fundamentally broken things about how Mastodon posts work that are terrible vectors for abuse, as well as being bad for basic usability. Maybe they are fixable, I don't know. To be clear: I am a fan of Mastodon. I have been enjoying my time there much more than I ever enjoyed Twitter or Facebook or Instagram. And I am 100% in the "I won't touch anything Jack Dorsey has ...

cetan Aug 5, 2023

@jwz "assuming that anyone who actually works on this software agrees with me, which they should, because it is Right and Proper and I am Obviously Correct" is the best thing I've read today. (I also don't get out much)

toxtethogrady Aug 5, 2023

@jwz On Twitter, whenever someone blocked me, they disappeared themselves, which was how I knew they'd run off screaming into the night. It's like they ceased to exist, so I would move on to other entrees on the menu...

Jacob 0xFFF Aug 6, 2023

@toxtethogrady No you disappeared. It was like you ceased to exist. Any they were happier for it.

AnneTheWriter Aug 7, 2023

@toxtethogrady @jwz
The other user still existed, as did their reply, you just didn't see either one. On Twitter, blocking merely kept you from seeing each other, and them from replying to you personally-- but they could still reply within your thread to others who replied there.

I kept a second Twitter account (bot) for many years, just so I could view posts from accounts that had blocked me or whom I had blocked, in case it should have ever became necessary (which it did, more than a few times). Conversations did carry on in reply to accounts which were blocked from mine, but which had commented on my original tweet.

toxtethogrady Aug 7, 2023

@AnneTheWriter1 @jwz I decided to live in blissful ignorance😎 If I had any reason to see anything posted by anyone who'd blocked me, I would have tried those workarounds, but it was never worth my effort. Meanwhile, I never blocked anyone. My facts were always better than theirs, my sources could always be cited and my wit was always twice theirs...

"Not twice mine..."

Till Aug 8, 2023

Nice way of saying, "I never even realised, when I got burned".

@AnneTheWriter1 @jwz

AnneTheWriter Aug 9, 2023

@toxtethogrady @jwz
The image you used is from the Classic #StarTrek, Season 3 Episode 10, 1968. The character is "Parmen" (actor Liam Sullivan). He is a telekinetic sadist. He's a very nasty villain, who uses the crew of the Enterprise as puppets. The episode is famous for showing the first inter-racial kiss on TV.

Did you choose him intending to give the impression that you're an ahole, or did you neglect to check your "facts" first?

#StarTrekTOS #PlatosStepchildren

toxtethogrady Aug 9, 2023

@AnneTheWriter1 @jwz "Parmen" said the words, "Not twice mine" to Kirk. Boy, was he proven wrong...

AnneTheWriter Aug 9, 2023

@toxtethogrady @jwz

I bow to your superior #Trekkie knowledge. LOL... I had forgotten that line!

toxtethogrady Aug 9, 2023

@AnneTheWriter1 @jwz Star Trek was great for gems like that one. Seinfeld was also like that. Things you could apply to almost any situation...

Brecht Savelkoul Aug 5, 2023

@jwz The way to handle replies that you propose is included as an option in the ActivityPub spec: https://www.w3.org/TR/activitystreams-vocabulary/#dfn-replies, so the spec isn't what's holding back Mastodon to implement this.

Activity Vocabulary

Jef Poskanzer Aug 5, 2023

@brecht @jwz Yeah I'm not surprised that ActivityPub can implement this even though Mastodon (currently) doesn't. AP seems very 'tools not rules'.

Brecht Savelkoul Aug 6, 2023

@jef @jwz Yep it has to be flexible if the goal is to support all conceivable kinds of social networking.

Mastodon started out as an OStatus server though. I don't know that spec, maybe it was more restrictive and that's why things like this aren't used (yet)?

Les Orchard Aug 6, 2023

@brecht @jwz Was just thinking out loud about this over in a thread of mine - tl;dr: yes replies and also maybe context to identify the top-level post on each reply in the thread?

https://hackers.town/@lmorchard/110844124878169239

Activity Vocabulary

Brecht Savelkoul Aug 6, 2023

@lmorchard @jwz That would make sense, though I have no idea how/if this property is already used in the wild right now.

Les Orchard Aug 6, 2023

@brecht @jwz Yeah, that's a good question. I haven't seen it used at all, myself, but I'm of course not omniscient 😅

living edge case Aug 5, 2023

@jwz
OCR of the attached image :
Mastodon's Mastodon'ts
There are a few fundamentaly broken things about how
Mastodon posts work that are terrible vectors for abuse,
as well as being bad for basic usability. Maybe they are
fixable, I don't know.
To be clear: I am a fan of Mastodon. I have been enjoying
my time there much more than I ever enjoyed Twitter or
Facebook or instagram. And I am 100% in the "I won't
touch anything Jack Dorsey has touched" camp. That is
absolutely and forever disqualifying.
Howeve, it is not ideal. It needs fixin'.
• When you block someone, they don't necessarily stop seeing your posts. Maybe they
do, maybe not. "They stop seeing them on X but if they go to Y they can still see it, oh,
but they can still see it on X if they follow someone who"AAAUUGHH STOP, NO.
Blocking on Mastodon does not work the way anyone understands or expects blocking
to work.

jwz Aug 5, 2023

@jonossaseuraava Oh go fuck yourself. Your bullshit is exactly the kind of shit I wish I could delete.

living edge case Aug 5, 2023

@jwz so you don't care about accessibility then?

You could have copy pasted the text from the page to image description or at the very least told that screenshot is of the text which is behind the hyperlink in the post

: j@fabrica:~/src;

@jonossaseuraava @jwz It’s a screenshot of the link. The alt text says “screenshot”. Do you think people with difficulty seeing are idiots? Maybe we are, but I at least can figure out to point my screen reader at the link…

living edge case Aug 6, 2023

@josephholsten @jwz
Well I certainly am an idiot since I didn't make the connection 😄

: j@fabrica:~/src;

@jonossaseuraava @jwz And I’m being an asshole, since I’ve been following jwz’s posts like this for a while and knew from before. “Screenshot of linked article” would certainly be better alternate text

Robotistry Aug 6, 2023

@jonossaseuraava @jwz Thanks for the proper alt text.

If microblogs are like articles rather than conversations, then article rules apply: the platform hosting the article/offensive comments (not the author) is responsible for deleting them.

Authors own their words. The platform determines whether they are deleted. But the platform can choose to delegate that responsibility to the author.

Would it be too complicated to let instances choose to delegate or not?

Matt Sicker Aug 5, 2023

@jwz Twitter used to work that way until they got their shit together and made top posts a dedicated concept compared to replies and retweets, both of which started as textual conventions. I could see something like what you propose making its way in one day.

@jwz "I own the replies to my post" is very important. A lot of grief on the Internet happened because people didn't know they could (and should) delete jerks from their own posts (regardless of platform), rather than give up on comments ever being useful.

Siderea, Sibylla Bostoniensis Aug 6, 2023

@isagalaev @jwz
Holy shit it is so nice to hear people say this aloud. I've been quietly over here in my corner thinking about launching my own entire rant to this point wondering if I was the only person who got this.

I find Mastodon's complete failure to grasp/implement this principle both maddening and incredibly ironic. This has been, until quite recently, the number one problem with Twitter (and similar systems like G+), and what caused it to be such an utter shit show. Mastodon's failure to allow users to own their comments and provide them with moderator tools reconstitutes exactly the toxic dynamics of Twitter. Mastodon has tried to compensate for this with a model that has the people running instances functioning as moderators, which is a "solution" of such terrible long-term consequences as to be indistinguishable from active sabotage of the Fediverse.

just adrienne Aug 6, 2023

@siderea @isagalaev @jwz Yeah. While i personally think that "deleting other people's posts" might be a bridge too far, at the VERY least you should be able to SEVER THE REPLY-TO RELATIONSHIP of any post you don't want in your thread. People can say shitty things if they want, but you shouldn't have to automatically boost the reach of that just because it's a reply to something you said.

@adrienne @siderea @jwz "i personally think that "deleting other people's posts" might be a bridge too far — this is exactly the problem I was talking about. Too many people adopted this… reverential approach to something someone else wrote, which just shouldn't exist.

As jwz mentioned in the article a person coming to *your* comments effectively uses your platform, of which you should stay in control. If they want to be in control they should write their own post, mentioning yours. (cont…)

just adrienne Aug 6, 2023

@isagalaev @siderea @jwz Yes, i agree, but someone replying to your post kind of IS "writing their own post, mentioning yours". It still lives on their server! It's just that "mentioning" creates a relationship (reply-to). Being able to sever this relationship at will would allow people to maintain their own content which they did, after all, post on their own fucking server -- but removes it from association with your content.

(FYI, i'm on the mod team of a fairly popular Fediverse server which is extremely full of queer & marginalized people; i'm not stupid, i'm not inexperienced, and i am certainly not "reverential" about shit other people write.)

just adrienne Aug 6, 2023

@isagalaev @siderea @jwz And i do, in fact, ACTIVELY RESENT the implication that i didn't read and thoughtfully consider JWZ's post (which i have in fact just posted to the Discord server for our community, noting "these are great ideas!")

@adrienne P.S. I didn't imply you haven't read the article!

@adrienne I wasn't trying to attack you personally with "reverential". I was describing a position I refer to, which your words reminded me of. Sorry if that was unclear!

just adrienne Aug 6, 2023

@isagalaev Thanks! Sorry, i'm a little on edge myself!

Siderea, Sibylla Bostoniensis Aug 6, 2023

> but someone replying to your post kind of IS "writing their own post, mentioning yours".

That's the problem: it is, but it shouldn't be.

This isn't just a technological problem, it's a cultural one.

The Blogosphere has a very different culture than Twitter does. It has very clear boundaries that Twitter and many other "social media" platforms don't share. On the Blogosphere, whether or not you have jurisdiction over something you write depends on where you write it. If you didn't want to give somebody else authority to delete it you shouldn't have written it as a comment on their blog. You have your own blog where you have the authority and nobody else can delete what you write.

Mastodon is implemented like Twitter, where there is no distinction between different people's spaces, such that it makes sense to conceptualize a comment a user leaves on another's post as "theirs". After all, all of the comments each of us writes appear on our comments tab.

@isagalaev @jwz

Siderea, Sibylla Bostoniensis Aug 6, 2023

I think this is a terrible mistake. I believe, strongly, "good fences make good neighbors".

One of the beautiful consequences of this stark doctrine, where everyone has their own space and if you go into someone else's space to leave a comment there you do so knowing they have complete authority to delete that comment, is that it puts huge social pressure on people to mind their manners. If you want your comment to remain up - or even appear in the first place, given premoderation - you need to make it acceptable to the person you're addressing it to.

The fact that no such pressure exists on Twitter explains an awful lot of why Twitter is like Twitter is.

@isagalaev @jwz

just adrienne Aug 6, 2023

@siderea @isagalaev @jwz I mean, we're not going to agree here, i don't think -- which doesn't surprise me, since while you probably have no idea who i am, i know who you are, and we've been in disagreement about a great many things over the course of the last 20+ years of the internet. But i do have a lot of moderation experience, myself, and i feel qualified to disagree here.

just adrienne Aug 6, 2023

@siderea @isagalaev @jwz Yes but from their perspective they are, in fact, writing it in their own space -- it lives on their server! I agree with you that the expectations and affordances here are cultural as well as technical, and, again, I AGREE WITH JWZ ON THE NEED TO BE ABLE TO KEEP PEOPLE FROM SHITTING UP YOUR CONVERSATIONS.

But frankly, i absolutely do not want people being able to send a request that deletes my own shit from my own profile on my own server! And i think there are solid ways to approach the issue of "make this more like a blog-space where the original poster has priority" that do not have that side-effect!

jwz Aug 6, 2023

@adrienne @siderea @isagalaev Under my proposed design, their perspective that they are writing in their own space is simply wrong. They are not. Posting a reply is asking the author to consider adding their reply to the metadata of the post. If that's not what you want, make your own top level post.

jwz Aug 6, 2023

@adrienne @siderea @isagalaev Likewise, characterizing deleting a comment as "deleting a post from someone else's server" is not how this works. If I make a post, and my server sends a copy to yours; then I edit the metadata to correct a typo; then my server sends an updated copy to your server, which updates it; what gives me the right to do that? Because that's how the software works. Because that's how database replication works. Because that's what everybody wants.

Needlessly Adversarial Example Aug 6, 2023

@jwz @adrienne @siderea @isagalaev I love this framing. Pair this with the following assertions and, baby, you got a stew going:
1. Public-key cryptographic verification ensures parent poster cannot modify content of replies / impersonate other users, only remove.
2. Deleting a reply should generally notify the target of moderation, giving their client an opportunity to handle as desired (e.g. deleting copy from their timeline; reposting as a top-level quote-toot)

Cassandrich Aug 6, 2023

@siderea @adrienne @isagalaev @jwz It can be made into a technological one. I've been working out how you'd do a real decentralized (no coinbro shit) version of the fediverse, and "replies don't show up unless they're accompanied by proof of authorization to reply" is an ingredient. Authorization would normally be by assigned proxy authority (something like "well moderated instance or known friend automatically gets authorized but revokable).

just adrienne Aug 6, 2023

@dalias @siderea @isagalaev @jwz Well, i mean, i also do in fact want a way for posters to explicitly sever a reply-to relationship. I want affordances for that specifically. Like "this reply in particular, i don't care if it comes from a trusted server, i do not want it attached to my post, so boom, it is not attached anymore." That's still a technical problem, but a different one!

just adrienne Aug 6, 2023

@dalias @siderea @isagalaev @jwz The frustrating thing about this entire conversation is that i AGREE with the points JWZ is making about conversations and replies! I think they're really important!

Cassandrich Aug 6, 2023

@adrienne @siderea @isagalaev @jwz I can't see them. Not sure if I'm blocked or what..?

just adrienne Aug 6, 2023

@dalias the article's over here at his blog too: https://jwz.org/b/ykC_

Mastodon's Mastodon'ts

There are a few fundamentally broken things about how Mastodon posts work that are terrible vectors for abuse, as well as being bad for basic usability. Maybe they are fixable, I don't know. To be clear: I am a fan of Mastodon. I have been enjoying my time there much more than I ever enjoyed Twitter or Facebook or Instagram. And I am 100% in the "I won't touch anything Jack Dorsey has ...

Cassandrich Aug 6, 2023

@adrienne @siderea @isagalaev @jwz Yes. That'd be a revocation whereby, if an instance were still trying to show the proof of authorization to reply after having been presented with proof of revocation (both notarized to sequence them), you'd have cryptographic proof it's a malicious instance and it would automatically get blocked.

Jon Aug 6, 2023

One way to look at it is that whoever creates a thread should have control over who can participate and on what terms. With that framing jwz's model is saying "you can only reply to this thread if you give me permission to delete your reply if I want". So it's a complement to other useful limitations on who can reply -- that also aren't implemented here and really should be. No question that Mastodon's current behavior is broken, whether you look at in terms of the Twitter model of "each tweet exists on its own but people can control who can reply and which replies are shown" or the forum/blog/Facebook model of "replies only exist within the context of a thread, and whoever created the thread can delete them".

Then again, when OP make their right to delete replies a condition for replying, under what circumstances will the increased visibility of posting as a reply be seen as outweighing the risk that the original poster will get annoyed at you and delete your reply as well as blocking you, or that your reply will be collateral damage if they decided to burn it all down? It'll be interesting to see what happens the first time a guy with a big following throws a hissy fit and deletes all replies to a post that's gotten a lot of traction -- or worse, deletes all the replies to all his posts before ceremoniously flouncing off.

Of course, a lot depends on the implementation, but it wouldn't surprise me if a lot of people will choose to make new top-level posts instead of replying (as happens on Facebook and forums, although blogs resstrict who can make top-level posts). So my guess is that if things go that route we'll see more quotes and pseudo-quotes (screenshotting or cut-and-pasting and including a link). Which isn't an argument one way or another, just something to consider.

@dalias @adrienne @siderea @isagalaev @jwz

Siderea, Sibylla Bostoniensis Aug 6, 2023

Point of order, "although blogs resstrict who can make top-level posts": no, blogs do not restrict who can make top-level posts. Anyone can make a top level post. *On their own blog.* Which anyone can go out and get, for free, on a variety of different platforms.

Some platforms, most notably LiveJournal, enforced all users having their own blogs (journals). Unless a poster allowed anonymous commenting, you couldn't comment at all on somebody else's posts except by signing up with LJ, which came with a side of your own blog to use or not as you saw fit.

Not to pick on you in particular, but it's been really fascinating how this entire discussion has really exposed a kind of digital provincialism, where people who are only really familiar with some specific platforms, perhaps Twitter, really have no idea what the dynamics, affordances and social norms are in other parts of the internet.

@jwz @isagalaev
@dalias

robert daniel pickard Aug 6, 2023

@siderea @jdp23 @jwz @isagalaev @dalias do you envision it that if i comment on your post and you delete it, i still have a instance of my comment as part of my own time line? so my followers could see it, but yours wouldn’t

Or is the only instance of my comment part of your timeline so deleting it would erase all copies of the comment?

I don't have a strong opinion, just curious how folks are thinking about what their ideal scenario would be for this hypothetical, but good, change in behavior

Siderea, Sibylla Bostoniensis Aug 6, 2023

> do you envision it that if i comment on your post and you delete it, i still have a instance of my comment as part of my own time line? so my followers could see it, but yours wouldn’t

Where do you think your replies appear, right now?

Have you been perhaps confused by how when you make a reply to someone else's comment it appears in your timeline *to you*, when you're logged in? (I have no idea why Mastodon does this; it's misleading.)

For instance, this comment of yours, that I'm responding to right now, does not appear in your timeline *to anyone except you*, and is not pushed to your followers.

People who go to your profile page and click on the "With Replies" tab there can see it, regardless of whether or not they follow you.

Your followers do not know that you are participating in this conversation at all, unless you boost it to them.

Your replies to comments already do not appear in your timeline as far as anyone else can see.

@jdp23 @jwz @isagalaev @dalias

Siderea, Sibylla Bostoniensis Aug 6, 2023

Now, if you know all that, and you're just really really concerned that any comment you make has a permanent record under your "With Replies" tab, and that *you* see it in your timeline, I have no problem with that. Might be a pain to implement if we go with the metadata model that @jwz proposes, but I don't have an objection to that.

But what we're proposing is that if you leave a comment in reply on someone else's OP and they find your comment objectionable or undesirable for any reason whatsoever, they get to remove it from that context. Which is the only context it has so is pretty much coterminous with deletion, the same way if an editor removes a passage from a book that they then publish but saves a draft of the removed material on their local machine we generally refer to that as a deleted passage.

@jdp23 @isagalaev @dalias

Cassandrich Aug 6, 2023

@siderea @rdp @jwz @jdp23 @isagalaev That's not the only context. Arguably the main context it's seen in is the home feeds of all your followers. Would it disappear from there too? Would clicking on it there cease to expand with the context of the post it was made in reply to? This is a primary vector of unwanted contact and motivation for desire to restrict replies.