New Yorkers who are relatively apolitical tend to vote Democrat just because that's the culturally normal thing to do there. As more and more of them witness the disaster of illegal immigration, I see two possible outcomes: either 1. they start to vote for conservatives, or 2. they pressure Democrat leadership to abandon their pro-illegal policy, and start deporting all of these criminals.

tend to vote Democrat just because that’s the culturally normal thing to do there

Do you have evidence to support this? Because that is an incredibly simple explanation for something very complicated.

they start to vote for conservatives

Democrats just don’t do that. The GOP is way to extreme for that to happen.

they pressure Democrat leadership to abandon their pro-illegal policy, and start deporting all of these criminals.

Seems to me that they are more than willing to do what is needed to help those in need. I truly find it bizarre how helping people is seen as a bad thing. And I find it bizarre how dehumanizing them is the norm.

Do you have evidence to support this?

Just my personal impression from having lived in urban leftist areas. I'm not including anyone who's keyed into politics, just the other 80%.

Democrats just don’t do that.

The Democrat Party is a coalition. Democrats who believe strongly in political ideals, and who believe Republicans are evil (or close to it) would never vote Republican, sure. But I'm not talking about them. Many Democrats vote as they do just because that's what their friends and families do, and they've never been given a reason to question it. Those are the folks I spoke of, and there's a ton of them.

Seems to me that they are more than willing to do what is needed to help those in need. I truly find it bizarre how helping people is seen as a bad thing. And I find it bizarre how dehumanizing them is the norm.

We're talking about illegals here, not normal immigrants. The distinction is crucial.

When somebody's very first act on American soil is to break the law, that person is a criminal with no regard for civility. Compassion is appropriate when they remain in their home countries, fighting against their oppressors. Compassion is inappropriate for criminals who invade our country with the express purpose of breaking our laws.

Legal immigrants, who I hope have been carefully vetted for American values, are welcome to share our blessed home and our Judeo-Christian values and rugged individualism. Illegal immigrants, otoh, are by definition not.

Just my personal impression from having lived in urban leftist areas. I’m not including anyone who’s keyed into politics, just the other 80%.

It’s generally unwise to base your arguments off of anecdotes.

We’re talking about illegals here, not normal immigrants.

There is little difference between the two. Both are human, both are trying to escape danger, etc.

When somebody’s very first act on American soil is to break the law, that person is a criminal with no regard for civility.

It’s a misdemeanor, and most often they do so because America has destroyed their country and are seeking refuge. If civility was important, perhaps the U.S. should have thought twice about destabilizing Latin American countries and destabilizing entire ecosystems.

Compassion is appropriate when they remain in their home countries, fighting against their oppressors.

That’s very easy for somebody to say who has never experienced what it is like to have your family and loved ones in danger for simply existing in one of the countries they are trying to escape from.

Legal immigrants, who I hope have been carefully vetted for American values, are welcome to share our blessed home and our Judeo-Christian values and rugged individualism. Illegal immigrants, otoh, are by definition not.

Legal immigration takes years and thousands of dollars, per person. How is that a reasonable expectation for a family who has nothing but the clothes on their backs, and are actively being hunted by cartels, loan sharks, etc?

It’s generally unwise to base your arguments off of anecdotes.

I wholeheartedly disagree. Most of what we know is from our own personal experiences. It's important to be transparent that an anecdote is just an anecdote, but there's nothing unwise about basing an argument off one, provided the anecdotal source is transparent.

There is little difference between the two. Both are human, both are trying to escape danger, etc.

There's a world of difference.

A legal immigrant generally comes to the US because they're a Christian escaping persecution, and they believe "liberty or death" — American values. They are the kind of people who are law-abiding, and patriotic.

Illegals are a different type altogether. They're willing to break the law either because they're hardened criminals or because they come from a society with such lawlessness that they have no real conception of law.

I think many Americans on the Left fail to grasp this difference because they don't own ANY American flags, and they willfully break the law frequently — smoking pot, speeding when they drive, jaywalking, etc. The conservative personality type that's actually a law-abiding Christian is completely foreign to the stereotypical leftist. So if that's your perspective, you don't see a difference because you're not an American at heart.

It’s a misdemeanor, so you are severely exaggerating the severity of the crime.

Anyone willing to break the law is a criminal. Someone willing to break into another country and break the law there, is the bottom of the barrel. I don't care what category of crime it is. If you think some laws are okay to break, you're absolutely wrong.

[…] because America has destroyed their country […]

Cry me a river. I don't support US military aggression overseas, but at the same time people need to stand up and fight in their own country instead of running away. Cowards have no place in American culture.

That’s very easy for somebody to say who has never experienced what it is like to have your family and loved ones in danger for simply existing in one of the countries they are trying to escape from.

I have some Jewish ancestors who died in the holocaust. If they'd been armed, and fought back, they'd have died respectable deaths, and there'd have been no concentration camps. I find it hard to sympathize with any man who doesn't fight like a man.

Legal immigration takes years and thousands of dollars, per person. How is that a reasonable expectation […]

If I had it my way (and let us both be grateful that American policy is not solely in the hands of any single individual like myself), the US would grant legal immigration to less than ten people per year, maximum. The borders would be completely shut down, and once you leave you can never return. Anyone trying to enter the country (except those ten or fewer legal immigrants) would be deported by means of a catapult.

Just because a law exists doesn’t mean it is moral. Jesus knew that.

I offer you Romans 13:1-2:

Every person is to be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves.

Now to be fair, there's also Acts 5:29, which says:

But Peter and the apostles answered, “We must obey God rather than men.

But that only applies to scenarios in which God has directly commanded someone to break the law of man. Show me a case of an illegal immigrant claiming God specifically ordered him to do something requiring illegal entry into the US, and I'd advocate for asylum. I've never heard of that particular scenario, but sure there's a non-zero chance it could happen.

First of all, the thing that fried my brain. What on earth does owning flags have to do with who commits crimes?

Second of all, this is one of the most hateful, vile things I have ever read. Very unchristian of you. I thought you said Christians were inclusive and accepting, clearly you aren't. Repent you heathen Satan worshiper. Literally condemning people to death and feeling proud of yourself for being a 'high and mighty Christian.' Isn't pride a sin, cause ego goes along with pride, and you sir. Are full of it.

I'm sorry, what's hateful about what I wrote? You could have at least explained that before ranting about it.

Sorry for "frying your brain". Patriotic Americans own flags, hoist them, and fly them, showing respect for our neighbors and law and order. It may seem unrelated to being a law-abiding citizen if you're not part of the culture.

I’m sorry, what’s hateful about what I wrote? You could have at least explained that before ranting about it.

You would rather people (and children) die than receive any kind of help through immigration. You are calling people bottom of the barrel for trying to escape from danger. You are dehumanizing people on the basis of a single crime. You are judging your political opponents as criminals for failing to hold a false idol to the same standard you do.

Upvoted for a pretty good explanation, though I do disagree that any of that is hateful, and I don't know what "false idol" you referred to.

I'll tell you this: I don't feel any hatred in my heart towards illegal immigrants, nor towards my political opponents. I mean that honestly.

So I take issue with your claim of hatred, as it's factually incorrect.

I don’t know what “false idol” you referred to.

The flag

I’ll tell you this: I don’t feel any hatred in my heart towards illegal immigrants, nor towards my political opponents. I mean that honestly.

So I take issue with your claim of hatred, as it’s factually incorrect.

You don’t have to hate somebody to do something hateful towards them or say something hateful. Hate isn’t always intentional.

The flag

Gotcha. The flag's not a false idol at all. Not sure where you live, but I'm in a fairly Christian conservative area, and it's commonplace to see "kneel for the cross, stand for the flag" signs. Nobody worships the flag. It's just a uniting symbol of our neighbors across the nation. When we say "love your neighbor", the flag is the imagery that comes to mind for me. It's not an idol at all, just a symbol of our fellow Americans, who we strive to love.

You don’t have to hate somebody to do something hateful towards them or say something hateful. Hate isn’t always intentional.

What a peculiar claim. Hatred is a feeling. I know what's in my heart. You don't. You can misinterpret my words, but you can't rightfully ascribe feelings to my heart which I don't feel.

Nobody worships the flag.

They absolutely do, and you’ve done quite a bit of it yourself from what I have read from you. You treat is as a moral failure for not treating the flag with the utmost respect, and that is a form of worship.

What a peculiar claim. Hatred is a feeling. I know what’s in my heart. You don’t. You can misinterpret my words, but you can’t rightfully ascribe feelings to my heart which I don’t feel.

Hate can be a feeling, but it isn’t always a feeling. Hatred can be a cold unfeeling action, or speech. Granted, I think if this part of the conversation continues any further then it will devolve into semantics.

Semantics matter! So many of our disagreements are rooted in our using different definitions, and talking past each other, thinking the other side is crazy because we're misinterpreting each other's words.

You don't have to convince me to change my personal definition of anything. But by defining yours, as you have, I can understand where you're coming from. The fact that I don't consider it hatred doesn't much matter.

So @thepixelfox's point (and I suppose your point too) that I am cold and unfeeling towards foreigners who break into the US illegally is absolutely correct. Again I want to emphasize that I don't hate these people emotionally. But I don't think they deserve an ounce of our sympathy either. They're not our neighbors; they're hostile invaders.

You treat is as a moral failure for not treating the flag with the utmost respect, and that is a form of worship.

I'd treat it as a moral failure to disrespect a neighbor, and the flag symbolizes our neighbors. Moreover, I believe the US is one nation under God, and that concept is represented in our flag.

Listen, I'm a sinner, and I don't pretend to be even slightly perfect. There is so much I deserve to be judged for, and I'll accept that judgment when the day comes. But one of the few sins I'm not guilty of, to the best of my knowledge, is idolatry.

And in my experience, it's uncommon for others to worship the flag either. Treating it with respect out of respect for our neighbors and our nation is wholly different from worshiping it.

They’re not our neighbors; they’re hostile invaders.

They aren’t hostile though. They commit crimes at a lower rate than the general population. And they aren’t moving here out of malice, they are doing so to have better lives.

I’d treat it as a moral failure to disrespect a neighbor, and the flag symbolizes our neighbors.

Not everyone sees the flag that way. A lot of people see it in a negative light for a lot of different reasons. But that’s it’s own tangent.

My point is, regardless of what the flag represents, it is a symbol/image (idol) other than god that is worshiped.

it’s uncommon for others to worship the flag either

When Kaepernick kneeled instead of standing for the flag/anthem, people hated his guts ultimately because he wasn’t worshiping it, and worshiping it is often seen as the default. I won’t speak to how common it is, but it is definitely common enough to be noticeable. Another good example is how school children worship the flag every day with the pledge of allegiance.

Once somebody becomes an illegal, everything they do is inherently illegal until they retreat from American soil. How is it possible for them to be less illegal than a bona fide American when their entire state of being, and everything they do, is inherently illegal? It seems like you're telling me I'd see that they're actually good citizens if only I'd ignore the facts that they're neither good nor citizens.

Anyone who has any kind of negative association with the American flag needs to get out of the US, ASAP, and I do support deportation for them. But you're right, that's it's own tangent.

With regard to your position on idolatry, I do understand your viewpoint, and I don't defend idolatry. Of all the various reasons one might refuse to salute the flag, I think a fear of idolatry is perhaps the only one I'd consider valid. I get why you wouldn't want to touch it with a ten-foot pole. I only ask that you trust me when I say I don't worship the flag.

In my personal life, whenever I pledge my allegiance to the flag (which happens at least once per week), it's always preceded by a prayer. That's the same way it always was for school children too until SCOTUS banned it in '62. I believe that was a mistake, and saying the pledge without an opening prayer can certainly leave the wrong impression.

Once somebody becomes an illegal, everything they do is inherently illegal until they retreat from American soil. How is it possible for them to be less illegal than a bona fide American when their entire state of being, and everything they do, is inherently illegal?

That’s not how the legal system treats it. Being in the country illegal is counted as one crime.

Anyone who has any kind of negative association with the American flag needs to get out of the US, ASAP, and I do support deportation for them.

The government deporting people based on political opinions like this is antithetical to the founding principles of our nation, and is un-american. It’s also a violation of the first amendment.

I only ask that you trust me when I say I don’t worship the flag.

I’m sorry but I can’t trust that when you treat people who don’t respect the flag as a moral failures.

saying the pledge without an opening prayer can certainly leave the wrong impression.

Opening prayer and the allegiance itself leaves the wrong impression. People should not be forced to partake in another’s religion, nor should they be forced to worship the flag/the country.

That’s not how the legal system treats it.

I'm aware. The Left has a voice in the legal system, and as a result it's soft on crime, and especially crime related to this discussion. But in truth, an illegal immigrant cannot even brush his teeth legally if he does so on American soil.

The government deporting people based on political opinions like this is antithetical to the founding principles of our nation, and is un-american.

"Love it or leave it" is a traditionally American patriotic slogan. It's simple but true, and it applies to all things in life, not just the country. But when it comes to the country, it should be policy. I don't favor kicking out any legitimate citizen who recognizes this is the best country in the world, and would gladly fight and die to defend it. But for the leftists who hate America and want to change it to become more like some other country, they really need to pack up and move to that other country. There's nothing un-American about saying Americans ought to be American at heart.

It’s also a violation of the first amendment.

Not really, because I wouldn't want to take away anyone's right to freely express their position, even if that means criticizing America. They have every right to cuss up a storm while they spew their hatred of everything American, while I help them pack, and escort them to the airport.

I’m sorry but I can’t trust that when you treat people who don’t respect the flag as a moral failures.

That fact makes you certain I worship the flag? That doesn't make any sense. I stand up for my neighbors, and by extension my country, and by extension the cloth that symbolizes it. That's not worship. That's just following what Jesus said is the second most important commandment.

Opening prayer and the allegiance itself leaves the wrong impression. People should not be forced to partake in another’s religion, nor should they be forced to worship the flag/the country.

It's worthwhile to look at the background of the '62 ban on school prayer. Protestants read from the KJV, and Catholics didn't like the KJV. The argument was all about which translation to use in public schools. SCOTUS decided that the only way to solve the problem was to choose no Bible at all.

It's also worthwhile to consider the Crusades, which were successful by some measures, but are also widely criticized for valid reasons. One of those reasons is that it's truly impossible to force anyone to believe in a religion if they don't want to. And it's counterproductive to try.

So I agree that people shouldn't be forced to partake in religious practices against their will. But that just means we should leave Protestant vs Catholic fights to other forums, and prayers in public forums like schools should be generic. Whatever religion Americans hold, we can safely assume it's some form of Christianity, with a slim possibility of Judaism in some places.

When it comes to satanists, atheists, or anyone else who rejects the God for which America was founded, they should be given a genuine chance to repent and accept God before being politely deported.

And as for being "forced to worship the flag/the country", again, the pledge of allegiance just says "I promise to love my neighbor." If someone can't pledge to do that, you've got to wonder why they live here.