soviettatersNew York City Using Brooklyn Parks as Migrant Housing
New Yorkers who are relatively apolitical tend to vote Democrat just because that's the culturally normal thing to do there. As more and more of them witness the disaster of illegal immigration, I see two possible outcomes: either 1. they start to vote for conservatives, or 2. they pressure Democrat leadership to abandon their pro-illegal policy, and start deporting all of these criminals.
tend to vote Democrat just because that’s the culturally normal thing to do there
Do you have evidence to support this? Because that is an incredibly simple explanation for something very complicated.
Democrats just don’t do that. The GOP is way to extreme for that to happen.
Seems to me that they are more than willing to do what is needed to help those in need. I truly find it bizarre how helping people is seen as a bad thing. And I find it bizarre how dehumanizing them is the norm.
Do you have evidence to support this?
Just my personal impression from having lived in urban leftist areas. I'm not including anyone who's keyed into politics, just the other 80%.
Democrats just don’t do that.
The Democrat Party is a coalition. Democrats who believe strongly in political ideals, and who believe Republicans are evil (or close to it) would never vote Republican, sure. But I'm not talking about them. Many Democrats vote as they do just because that's what their friends and families do, and they've never been given a reason to question it. Those are the folks I spoke of, and there's a ton of them.
Seems to me that they are more than willing to do what is needed to help those in need. I truly find it bizarre how helping people is seen as a bad thing. And I find it bizarre how dehumanizing them is the norm.
We're talking about illegals here, not normal immigrants. The distinction is crucial.
When somebody's very first act on American soil is to break the law, that person is a criminal with no regard for civility. Compassion is appropriate when they remain in their home countries, fighting against their oppressors. Compassion is inappropriate for criminals who invade our country with the express purpose of breaking our laws.
Legal immigrants, who I hope have been carefully vetted for American values, are welcome to share our blessed home and our Judeo-Christian values and rugged individualism. Illegal immigrants, otoh, are by definition not.
Just my personal impression from having lived in urban leftist areas. I’m not including anyone who’s keyed into politics, just the other 80%.
It’s generally unwise to base your arguments off of anecdotes.
We’re talking about illegals here, not normal immigrants.
There is little difference between the two. Both are human, both are trying to escape danger, etc.
When somebody’s very first act on American soil is to break the law, that person is a criminal with no regard for civility.
It’s a misdemeanor, and most often they do so because America has destroyed their country and are seeking refuge. If civility was important, perhaps the U.S. should have thought twice about destabilizing Latin American countries and destabilizing entire ecosystems.
Compassion is appropriate when they remain in their home countries, fighting against their oppressors.
That’s very easy for somebody to say who has never experienced what it is like to have your family and loved ones in danger for simply existing in one of the countries they are trying to escape from.
Legal immigrants, who I hope have been carefully vetted for American values, are welcome to share our blessed home and our Judeo-Christian values and rugged individualism. Illegal immigrants, otoh, are by definition not.
Legal immigration takes years and thousands of dollars, per person. How is that a reasonable expectation for a family who has nothing but the clothes on their backs, and are actively being hunted by cartels, loan sharks, etc?
It’s generally unwise to base your arguments off of anecdotes.
I wholeheartedly disagree. Most of what we know is from our own personal experiences. It's important to be transparent that an anecdote is just an anecdote, but there's nothing unwise about basing an argument off one, provided the anecdotal source is transparent.
There is little difference between the two. Both are human, both are trying to escape danger, etc.
There's a world of difference.
A legal immigrant generally comes to the US because they're a Christian escaping persecution, and they believe "liberty or death" — American values. They are the kind of people who are law-abiding, and patriotic.
Illegals are a different type altogether. They're willing to break the law either because they're hardened criminals or because they come from a society with such lawlessness that they have no real conception of law.
I think many Americans on the Left fail to grasp this difference because they don't own ANY American flags, and they willfully break the law frequently — smoking pot, speeding when they drive, jaywalking, etc. The conservative personality type that's actually a law-abiding Christian is completely foreign to the stereotypical leftist. So if that's your perspective, you don't see a difference because you're not an American at heart.
It’s a misdemeanor, so you are severely exaggerating the severity of the crime.
Anyone willing to break the law is a criminal. Someone willing to break into another country and break the law there, is the bottom of the barrel. I don't care what category of crime it is. If you think some laws are okay to break, you're absolutely wrong.
[…] because America has destroyed their country […]
Cry me a river. I don't support US military aggression overseas, but at the same time people need to stand up and fight in their own country instead of running away. Cowards have no place in American culture.
That’s very easy for somebody to say who has never experienced what it is like to have your family and loved ones in danger for simply existing in one of the countries they are trying to escape from.
I have some Jewish ancestors who died in the holocaust. If they'd been armed, and fought back, they'd have died respectable deaths, and there'd have been no concentration camps. I find it hard to sympathize with any man who doesn't fight like a man.
Legal immigration takes years and thousands of dollars, per person. How is that a reasonable expectation […]
If I had it my way (and let us both be grateful that American policy is not solely in the hands of any single individual like myself), the US would grant legal immigration to less than ten people per year, maximum. The borders would be completely shut down, and once you leave you can never return. Anyone trying to enter the country (except those ten or fewer legal immigrants) would be deported by means of a catapult.
Just because a law exists doesn’t mean it is moral. Jesus knew that.
I offer you Romans 13:1-2:
Every person is to be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves.
Now to be fair, there's also Acts 5:29, which says:
But Peter and the apostles answered, “We must obey God rather than men.
But that only applies to scenarios in which God has directly commanded someone to break the law of man. Show me a case of an illegal immigrant claiming God specifically ordered him to do something requiring illegal entry into the US, and I'd advocate for asylum. I've never heard of that particular scenario, but sure there's a non-zero chance it could happen.
Bible Gateway passage: Romans 13:1-2 - New American Standard Bible
Be Subject to Government - Every person is to be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves.
thepixelfoxFirst of all, the thing that fried my brain. What on earth does owning flags have to do with who commits crimes?
Second of all, this is one of the most hateful, vile things I have ever read. Very unchristian of you. I thought you said Christians were inclusive and accepting, clearly you aren't. Repent you heathen Satan worshiper. Literally condemning people to death and feeling proud of yourself for being a 'high and mighty Christian.' Isn't pride a sin, cause ego goes along with pride, and you sir. Are full of it.
I'm sorry, what's hateful about what I wrote? You could have at least explained that before ranting about it.
Sorry for "frying your brain". Patriotic Americans own flags, hoist them, and fly them, showing respect for our neighbors and law and order. It may seem unrelated to being a law-abiding citizen if you're not part of the culture.
What is hateful about saying you don't care that people die if they 'don't fight like a man.' You're seriously asking that. First of all, your sexism is showing, second of all, how about the woman and children who flee in fear of being murdered? And no sympathy for jews dying in the holocaust cause they weren't armed, like that was their fault? Like you can just easily buy guns and ammo and fight back.
Please tell me how many wars you've fought in, you know, since you're such a patriotic man.
Flags do not equal patriotic, people who use the American flag as a pseudo God can be insane, take Trump supporters for example, crimes were committed and flags were flown. Mhm, yes, really patriotic upstanding citizens.
If you can't see the hate you're spewing, you're blind and a fool. But keep spouting your bullshit complete holiness and then acting like a psychopath.
Please consider 10 USC §246, which defines the US militia as all able-bodied men between ages 17 and 45.
That may give you some background on my perspective. I expect able-bodied men to be soldiers, ready to fight and die to protect their families at the drop of a hat. That's why we Americans keep and bear arms. It's not sexist to expect men to fight like men, and to find fault with cowardice.
First of all, we were talking about people fleeing other countries and the Jews, not the US. Also, the US code subordinate to the constitution, and the constitution gives 'the people' the right to won guns. PEOPLE. Not just men, people. so no, it's not just dur dur men.
Again, your sexism is showing. Men shouldn't be expected to be 'manly'. Men are people too, they can be however they like. I thought you were all for people being able to have freedom, yet you're pigeon holing people into categories and defined characteristics. Which is sexist.
But what do I expect from a Christian.
This is just so off-topic and lacking in understanding that I'm not going to continue arguing. Especially with that closing remark. God bless you, pixelfox.
It’s not sexist to expect men to fight like men, and to find fault with cowardice.
Have you ever seen liveleak videos of what cartels do to the people who stand up to them? Because I have. I’ve seen a guy get decapitated with a box cutter. If I were living in one of those countries, the logical thing for me to do is to get my family the hell out of there rather than to throw my life away in a failed attempt to take down a cartel.
The problem with what you’ve said isn’t sexism, the problem is that none of what you said has any sense of realism. You can’t pull yourself up by your bootstraps if you have no bootstraps.
What's wrong with you, watching a video like that? I'm traumatized just reading your description of it. Are you okay?
I get your point, and I don't think either of us can convince the other. The honorable man dies with his boots on. That's my position, and I'm sticking to it.
But really, I'm concerned about anyone watching videos like that. That's really disturbing.
What’s wrong with you, watching a video like that? I’m traumatized just reading your description of it. Are you okay?
4chan is a rough place and I will leave it at that.
The honorable man dies with his boots on.
When the continental army was fighting the British, they were fighting tyranny illegally, and doing so with women and children and tow. Many of those soldiers died during retreating movements, without their boots on so to speak.
I don’t aim to convince you, I’m simply here to point out that the rational thing is to recognize that getting your family out of danger through any means necessary is the moral thing to do even if it technically breaks the law.
I hear you. It's rather hard to convince anyone of anything, and the best we can do is listen and try to understand other people's perspectives.
While I personally don't favor retreat, I acknowledge that many do. I find it interesting to consider that our opinion on fighting versus retreat underlies our perspectives on illegal immigration, though obviously we're influenced by other factors and beliefs as well.
Please, for the love of all that is good, don't subject yourself to videos like that anymore. I mean, it's good to be aware of what's going on in the world, and it helps to make the point you made, but still, what nightmare material.
I’m sorry, what’s hateful about what I wrote? You could have at least explained that before ranting about it.
You would rather people (and children) die than receive any kind of help through immigration. You are calling people bottom of the barrel for trying to escape from danger. You are dehumanizing people on the basis of a single crime. You are judging your political opponents as criminals for failing to hold a false idol to the same standard you do.
Upvoted for a pretty good explanation, though I do disagree that any of that is hateful, and I don't know what "false idol" you referred to.
I'll tell you this: I don't feel any hatred in my heart towards illegal immigrants, nor towards my political opponents. I mean that honestly.
So I take issue with your claim of hatred, as it's factually incorrect.
I don’t know what “false idol” you referred to.
The flag
I’ll tell you this: I don’t feel any hatred in my heart towards illegal immigrants, nor towards my political opponents. I mean that honestly.
So I take issue with your claim of hatred, as it’s factually incorrect.
You don’t have to hate somebody to do something hateful towards them or say something hateful. Hate isn’t always intentional.
The flag
Gotcha. The flag's not a false idol at all. Not sure where you live, but I'm in a fairly Christian conservative area, and it's commonplace to see "kneel for the cross, stand for the flag" signs. Nobody worships the flag. It's just a uniting symbol of our neighbors across the nation. When we say "love your neighbor", the flag is the imagery that comes to mind for me. It's not an idol at all, just a symbol of our fellow Americans, who we strive to love.
You don’t have to hate somebody to do something hateful towards them or say something hateful. Hate isn’t always intentional.
What a peculiar claim. Hatred is a feeling. I know what's in my heart. You don't. You can misinterpret my words, but you can't rightfully ascribe feelings to my heart which I don't feel.
Nobody worships the flag.
They absolutely do, and you’ve done quite a bit of it yourself from what I have read from you. You treat is as a moral failure for not treating the flag with the utmost respect, and that is a form of worship.
What a peculiar claim. Hatred is a feeling. I know what’s in my heart. You don’t. You can misinterpret my words, but you can’t rightfully ascribe feelings to my heart which I don’t feel.
Hate can be a feeling, but it isn’t always a feeling. Hatred can be a cold unfeeling action, or speech. Granted, I think if this part of the conversation continues any further then it will devolve into semantics.
Semantics matter! So many of our disagreements are rooted in our using different definitions, and talking past each other, thinking the other side is crazy because we're misinterpreting each other's words.
You don't have to convince me to change my personal definition of anything. But by defining yours, as you have, I can understand where you're coming from. The fact that I don't consider it hatred doesn't much matter.
So @thepixelfox's point (and I suppose your point too) that I am cold and unfeeling towards foreigners who break into the US illegally is absolutely correct. Again I want to emphasize that I don't hate these people emotionally. But I don't think they deserve an ounce of our sympathy either. They're not our neighbors; they're hostile invaders.
You treat is as a moral failure for not treating the flag with the utmost respect, and that is a form of worship.
I'd treat it as a moral failure to disrespect a neighbor, and the flag symbolizes our neighbors. Moreover, I believe the US is one nation under God, and that concept is represented in our flag.
Listen, I'm a sinner, and I don't pretend to be even slightly perfect. There is so much I deserve to be judged for, and I'll accept that judgment when the day comes. But one of the few sins I'm not guilty of, to the best of my knowledge, is idolatry.
And in my experience, it's uncommon for others to worship the flag either. Treating it with respect out of respect for our neighbors and our nation is wholly different from worshiping it.
They’re not our neighbors; they’re hostile invaders.
They aren’t hostile though. They commit crimes at a lower rate than the general population. And they aren’t moving here out of malice, they are doing so to have better lives.
I’d treat it as a moral failure to disrespect a neighbor, and the flag symbolizes our neighbors.
Not everyone sees the flag that way. A lot of people see it in a negative light for a lot of different reasons. But that’s it’s own tangent.
My point is, regardless of what the flag represents, it is a symbol/image (idol) other than god that is worshiped.
it’s uncommon for others to worship the flag either
When Kaepernick kneeled instead of standing for the flag/anthem, people hated his guts ultimately because he wasn’t worshiping it, and worshiping it is often seen as the default. I won’t speak to how common it is, but it is definitely common enough to be noticeable. Another good example is how school children worship the flag every day with the pledge of allegiance.
Once somebody becomes an illegal, everything they do is inherently illegal until they retreat from American soil. How is it possible for them to be less illegal than a bona fide American when their entire state of being, and everything they do, is inherently illegal? It seems like you're telling me I'd see that they're actually good citizens if only I'd ignore the facts that they're neither good nor citizens.
Anyone who has any kind of negative association with the American flag needs to get out of the US, ASAP, and I do support deportation for them. But you're right, that's it's own tangent.
With regard to your position on idolatry, I do understand your viewpoint, and I don't defend idolatry. Of all the various reasons one might refuse to salute the flag, I think a fear of idolatry is perhaps the only one I'd consider valid. I get why you wouldn't want to touch it with a ten-foot pole. I only ask that you trust me when I say I don't worship the flag.
In my personal life, whenever I pledge my allegiance to the flag (which happens at least once per week), it's always preceded by a prayer. That's the same way it always was for school children too until SCOTUS banned it in '62. I believe that was a mistake, and saying the pledge without an opening prayer can certainly leave the wrong impression.
Once somebody becomes an illegal, everything they do is inherently illegal until they retreat from American soil. How is it possible for them to be less illegal than a bona fide American when their entire state of being, and everything they do, is inherently illegal?
That’s not how the legal system treats it. Being in the country illegal is counted as one crime.
Anyone who has any kind of negative association with the American flag needs to get out of the US, ASAP, and I do support deportation for them.
The government deporting people based on political opinions like this is antithetical to the founding principles of our nation, and is un-american. It’s also a violation of the first amendment.
I only ask that you trust me when I say I don’t worship the flag.
I’m sorry but I can’t trust that when you treat people who don’t respect the flag as a moral failures.
saying the pledge without an opening prayer can certainly leave the wrong impression.
Opening prayer and the allegiance itself leaves the wrong impression. People should not be forced to partake in another’s religion, nor should they be forced to worship the flag/the country.
That’s not how the legal system treats it.
I'm aware. The Left has a voice in the legal system, and as a result it's soft on crime, and especially crime related to this discussion. But in truth, an illegal immigrant cannot even brush his teeth legally if he does so on American soil.
The government deporting people based on political opinions like this is antithetical to the founding principles of our nation, and is un-american.
"Love it or leave it" is a traditionally American patriotic slogan. It's simple but true, and it applies to all things in life, not just the country. But when it comes to the country, it should be policy. I don't favor kicking out any legitimate citizen who recognizes this is the best country in the world, and would gladly fight and die to defend it. But for the leftists who hate America and want to change it to become more like some other country, they really need to pack up and move to that other country. There's nothing un-American about saying Americans ought to be American at heart.
It’s also a violation of the first amendment.
Not really, because I wouldn't want to take away anyone's right to freely express their position, even if that means criticizing America. They have every right to cuss up a storm while they spew their hatred of everything American, while I help them pack, and escort them to the airport.
I’m sorry but I can’t trust that when you treat people who don’t respect the flag as a moral failures.
That fact makes you certain I worship the flag? That doesn't make any sense. I stand up for my neighbors, and by extension my country, and by extension the cloth that symbolizes it. That's not worship. That's just following what Jesus said is the second most important commandment.
Opening prayer and the allegiance itself leaves the wrong impression. People should not be forced to partake in another’s religion, nor should they be forced to worship the flag/the country.
It's worthwhile to look at the background of the '62 ban on school prayer. Protestants read from the KJV, and Catholics didn't like the KJV. The argument was all about which translation to use in public schools. SCOTUS decided that the only way to solve the problem was to choose no Bible at all.
It's also worthwhile to consider the Crusades, which were successful by some measures, but are also widely criticized for valid reasons. One of those reasons is that it's truly impossible to force anyone to believe in a religion if they don't want to. And it's counterproductive to try.
So I agree that people shouldn't be forced to partake in religious practices against their will. But that just means we should leave Protestant vs Catholic fights to other forums, and prayers in public forums like schools should be generic. Whatever religion Americans hold, we can safely assume it's some form of Christianity, with a slim possibility of Judaism in some places.
When it comes to satanists, atheists, or anyone else who rejects the God for which America was founded, they should be given a genuine chance to repent and accept God before being politely deported.
And as for being "forced to worship the flag/the country", again, the pledge of allegiance just says "I promise to love my neighbor." If someone can't pledge to do that, you've got to wonder why they live here.
But in truth, an illegal immigrant cannot even brush his teeth legally if he does so on American soil.
That’s not true. I hate to repeat myself, but that’s not how the judicial branch treats it. To treat brushing your teeth in this manner to be illegal would be a violation of the 5th amendment of the constitution, because that would be double jeopardy. And this isn’t a thing the left is responsible for, because the left did not write the constitution.
“Love it or leave it” is a traditionally American patriotic slogan.
And it’s one that is a great disservice to this country.
But for the leftists who hate America and want to change it to become more like some other country, they really need to pack up and move to that other country.
I would if I could. But that costs thousands of dollars, and that’s assuming you find a good country that will take you in at all. Your expectation for people to up and move is unrealistic given the reality that it isn’t possible for a third to half of Americans to immigrate to Europe.
There’s nothing un-American about saying Americans ought to be American at heart.
That’s not what you said though:
“Anyone who has any kind of negative association with the American flag needs to get out of the US, ASAP, and I do support deportation for them.”
Deporting american citizens because they disagree with you is un-american. And it’s also a violation of the first amendment.
Not really, because I wouldn’t want to take away anyone’s right to freely express their position, even if that means criticizing America. They have every right to cuss up a storm while they spew their hatred of everything American, while I help them pack, and escort them to the airport.
The government forcing people out of the country because of their expressed opinion/position is a direct violation of the first amendment. The government CANNOT punish people for their opinions, and deporting them is a form of punishment.
That fact makes you certain I worship the flag? That doesn’t make any sense. I stand up for my neighbors, and by extension my country, and by extension the cloth that symbolizes it. That’s not worship. That’s just following what Jesus said is the second most important commandment.
If you said the same thing about Jesus as you did the flag I would think the same about you worshiping Jesus.
But that just means we should leave Protestant vs Catholic fights to other forums, and prayers in public forums like schools should be generic.
Prayer in schools even if generic is still a form of forcing religion upon others.
When it comes to satanists, atheists, or anyone else who rejects the God for which America was founded, they should be given a genuine chance to repent and accept God before being politely deported.
This is the same un-american violation of the first amendment as above.
the pledge of allegiance just says “I promise to love my neighbor.”
That’s not at all what it says.
- “I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all”
double jeopardy
I acquiesce this is technically correct. I didn't really mean it like that, exactly, but it's useless to belabor the point because we're beating a dead horse.
I would if I could. But that costs thousands of dollars,
Interesting. Where would you move, out of curiosity?
At times in the past I've mulled over starting a non-profit for the purpose of funding politically-oriented moves like this, where funds are granted to people of all political persuasions to relocate to a more politically appropriate place, and where funds are donated by people wanting to help accelerate that sorting process.
I wouldn't really start that non-profit, because ultimately it would distract from legitimately good charities, but it does cross my mind now and then.
and that’s assuming you find a good country that will take you in at all.
Yes, well this is also one of the reasons why all of my calls for deportation are unrealistic.
Deporting american citizens because they disagree with you is un-american. And it’s also a violation of the first amendment.
Agreed, but disagreeing with me is not the problem. I enjoy open disagreement, as I'm mostly enjoying this conversation with you. We can learn from engaging with people of differing perspectives.
When you talk about people who harbor a negative association with the American flag, though, that's far beyond a disagreement. You're talking about domestic terrorists there. They're absolutely not American at heart, so why would we allow them to live here? These are people who are likely to commit mass murder at the drop of a hat. I imagine there's probably less than a dozen such people nationwide.
Prayer in schools even if generic is still a form of forcing religion upon others.
Not whatsoever. There are a zillion denominations and factions of Christianity, and they're all welcome here, no matter how zany they are. Moreover, prayer is an open dialog with God, so almost all Christian prayers are fairly applicable to Jews and Muslims too, if they overlook a few words. That's the broadest acceptable spectrum of every religion in America. Bear in mind that we have the freedom of religion, not freedom from it.
That’s not at all what [the Pledge] says.
You're being overly literal. I know what the words to the Pledge are, thank you. I just recited it earlier today in church. What I meant was that it ultimately tells us to love our neighbors. That's the root meaning behind it.
Interesting. Where would you move, out of curiosity?
If I could move anywhere? Probably the Netherlands. They have walkable cities, good job, good healthcare, a healthy respect for the environment. They have many of the policies I would like to see happen here, and they are the happiest nation on Earth if I recall.
In reality? I will probably be moving to Costa Rica, at the very least for when I retire. My girlfriend is there and the cost of living is a decent bit cheaper there. When we move depends on a lot of things, but it is currently our backup. We are pretty damn terrified of the authoritarian/fascist policies that are becoming popularized in the U.S., and we don’t want to be persecuted for being who we are. So if things get particularly bad we might just end up getting a greencard wedding is Costa Rica.
I wouldn’t really start that non-profit, because ultimately it would distract from legitimately good charities, but it does cross my mind now and then.
There is one charity like that which comes to mind to me. It’s called the Rainbow Railroad, and it’s for LGBTQ+ people who are trying to escape persecution, who want to move to a place where they will be safe.
I suspect you would not be a fan of it though.
When you talk about people who harbor a negative association with the American flag, though, that’s far beyond a disagreement. You’re talking about domestic terrorists there.
It’s ultimately a disagreement, a huge one sure, but a disagreement. And it’s not domestic terrorism because that involves violence.
They’re absolutely not American at heart, so why would we allow them to live here?
Because the alternative is persecuting them for their beliefs, which is un-American and a 1st amendment violation.
These are people who are likely to commit mass murder at the drop of a hat
You have no evidence for that, but I would actually suspect it’s the opposite, or at least a similar crime rate as the rest.
And the reason for my suspicion is that most mass shootings are done by straight white men, and most domestic terrorism is right wing motivated. Neither of which aligns with the demographics that view the flag in a negative light. The nature of domestic terrorist attacks differs quite a bit between left vs right as well.
nij.ojp.gov/…/public-mass-shootings-database-amas…
csis.org/…/pushed-extremes-domestic-terrorism-ami…
ojp.gov/…/radical-right-vs-radical-left-terrorist…
I imagine there’s probably less than a dozen such people nationwide
It’s considerably more than that.
…yougov.com/…/how-americans-view-flags-and-symbol…
pewresearch.org/…/5-national-pride-and-shame/
npr.org/…/we-asked-americans-how-they-feel-about-…
From the first one, it would work out to roughly 30 million Americans who overall view the flag negatively. And that’s before you could the people who have a mixed view of it.
That’s the broadest acceptable spectrum of every religion in America
It doesn’t matter if it covers all religions because it’s generic, it’s still religious and forcing it upon children is forcing religion.
Bear in mind that we have the freedom of religion, not freedom from it.
It’s logically impossible to have one without the other. If the state has the ability to force you to partake in religion then we have no freedom of religion. They are one in the same.
What I meant was that it ultimately tells us to love our neighbors. That’s the root meaning behind it.
I don’t think that’s true. The meaning to mean quite clear is limited to this: By reciting the pledge you are promising loyalty to the state, its primary symbol (the flag). The last bit is about affirming the ideals of our country. The under god part of the ideals was in response to the red scare, the one nation indivisible in response to the civil war, etc.
It’s meant to be a patriotic, unifying/rallying cry. But it comes off as incredibly dystopian and creepy.
It doesn’t mention anything about our neighbors.
Public Mass Shootings: Database Amasses Details of a Half Century of U.S. Mass Shootings with Firearms, Generating Psychosocial Histories
Persons who committed public mass shootings in the U.S. over the last half century were commonly troubled by personal trauma before their shooting incidents, nearly always in a state of crisis at the time, and, in most cases, engaged in leaking their plans before opening fire. Most were insiders of a targeted institution, such as an employee or student. Except for young school shooters who stole the guns from family members, most used legally obtained handguns in those shootings.
Most of what we know is from our own personal experiences.
And that’s good for day to day living, but not for policy. The standards of evidence for policy need to be high.
A legal immigrant generally comes to the US because they’re a Christian escaping persecution, and they believe “liberty or death” — American values.
That applies to most migrants that cross illegally. And not all legal immigrants are christian. A lot of them are non-christian, about 40% to be exact:
pewresearch.org/…/the-religious-affiliation-of-us…
They’re willing to break the law either because they’re hardened criminals or because they come from a society with such lawlessness that they have no real conception of law.
As somebody who’s been to Latin American countries, that’s simply not true.
I think many Americans on the Left fail to grasp this difference because they don’t own ANY American flags, and they willfully break the law frequently — smoking pot, speeding when they drive, jaywalking, etc. The conservative personality type that’s actually a law-abiding Christian is completely foreign to the stereotypical leftist. So if that’s your perspective, you don’t see a difference because you’re not an American at heart.
This is just a sweeping generalization, to the point that it’s almost a joke.
Anyone willing to break the law is a criminal. Someone willing to break into another country and break the law there, is the bottom of the barrel.
I’m not seeing any real point here, so I will move on.
is the bottom of the barrel. I don’t care what category of crime it is. If you think some laws are okay to break, you’re absolutely wrong. (Edit: I take it back in the case of resisting tyranny.)
So breaking the law to resist tyranny makes you bottom of the barrel? That doesn’t make much sense.
Cry me a river. I don’t support US military aggression overseas, but at the same time people need to stand up and fight in their own country instead of running away. Cowards have no place in American culture.
Families are not soldiers.
I find it hard to sympathize with any man who doesn’t fight like a man.
And that is one of the root problems of conservatism, there is no empathy in an ideology which says that every problem to ever exist is a personal failure.
If I had it my way (and let us both be grateful that American policy is not solely in the hands of any single individual like myself), the US would grant legal immigration to less than ten people per year, maximum. The borders would be completely shut down, and once you leave you can never return. Anyone trying to enter the country (except those ten or fewer legal immigrants) would be deported by means of a catapult.
This has to be a troll, lol
I offer you Romans 13:1-2:
That doesn’t dismiss my point.
But that only applies to scenarios in which God has directly commanded someone to break the law of man. Show me a case of an illegal immigrant claiming God specifically ordered him to do something requiring illegal entry into the US, and I’d advocate for asylum. I’ve never heard of that particular scenario, but sure there’s a non-zero chance it could happen.
It’s not worth my time to aim for such a ridiculous goal post.
The Religious Affiliation of U.S. Immigrants: Majority Christian, Rising Share of Other Faiths
A Pew Research Center report looks at how the religious makeup of legal immigrants to the U.S. has changed over the past 20 years. While Christians continue to make up a majority of new legal permanent residents, a growing share belong to other faiths
The standards of evidence for policy need to be high.
I do agree with that.
about 40% to be exact
Wow, that's super interesting. About halfway down the page it says:
Of the approximately 11.1 million unauthorized immigrants living in the U.S. in 2011, an estimated 9.2 million (83%) are Christians, mostly from Latin America.
So USCIS exhibits values that misalign with my own, but that's not entirely surprising. What is surprising, to me at least, is that my personal values are more closely aligned with illegal immigrants than legal immigrants. I'm going to have to digest that fact for a while.
As somebody who’s been to Latin American countries, that’s simply not true.
Well being that I value anecdotes, go on and tell me more please.
So breaking the law to resist tyranny makes you bottom of the barrel? That doesn’t make much sense.
Sorry, no, that's not what I meant. I meant:
- Breaking the law is generally a bad thing to do, whether it's a misdemeanor, felony, or whatever.
- Breaking into a country to break that country's law is what I called "bottom of the barrel".
- Breaking the law to resist tyranny is where I make an exception, and side with the American founders that "resistance to tyranny is obedience to God".
Families are not soldiers.
All able-bodied men between 17 and 45 are part of the militia, according to 10 USC §246. Now I understand we're discussing other countries and other cultures here, but men everywhere protect women and children — that's one of the roles of a father in a family. If that means standing up to a tyrant, so be it.
And that is one of the root problems of conservatism, there is no empathy in an ideology which says that every problem to ever exist is a personal failure.
How's that a problem? It's built on fundamental beliefs in equality of opportunity and the principle that everyone has the ability to succeed. It also recognizes that we all fail in life, while some of us are motivated to learn from our personal failures and turn them into stepping stones to success.
This has to be a troll, lol
I wasn't trolling, honest. I was expressing a genuine opinion while recognizing it as a bit extreme, and acknowledging that I wouldn't want any individual to set policy by personal preference. I meant it, honestly.
That doesn’t dismiss my point.
How doesn't it? The words of God are the words of God.
Well being that I value anecdotes, go on and tell me more please.
What do you want me to tell you? The people there aren’t hardened criminals. The crime rate between the U.S. and Latin American countries is about the same once you take into account the effects of poverty and organized crime. Most Latin Americans are law abiding christians.
Sorry, no, that’s not what I meant. I meant:
I understand what you meant, but what you mean is self contradictory, hence the lack of sense. People who break an unjust law (resisting tyranny) cannot be both bottom of the barrel (unacceptable) and acceptable.
Now I understand we’re discussing other countries and other cultures here, but men everywhere protect women and children — that’s one of the roles of a father in a family. If that means standing up to a tyrant, so be it.
Not every situation is one you can stand up to. Fighting for your family, for your women and children, it often involves simply moving them out of danger.
How’s that a problem?
Empathy is a critical component to a functional society, and a good member of society.
It’s built on fundamental beliefs in equality of opportunity and the principle that everyone has the ability to succeed.
And it fails to address the fact that there is no such thing as equality of opportunity when there is a systemic problem with society.
I was expressing a genuine opinion while recognizing it as a bit extreme
What you’ve said is beyond extreme. And also shortsighted given that immigrants are incredibly beneficial for the economy, and on average commit fewer crimes than U.S. citizens:
www.epi.org/publication/immigration-facts/
Facts About Immigration and the U.S. Economy: Answers to Frequently Asked Questions
While immigration is among the most important issues the country faces, misperceptions persist about fundamental aspects of this crucial topic—such as the size and composition of the immigrant population, how immigration affects the economy and the workforce, the budgetary impact of unauthorized immigration, why increasing numbers of unaccompanied migrant children are arriving at the United…
The people there aren’t hardened criminals.
Well the people who choose to live there are a bit different from the ones who choose to illegally come to the US. How would you describe that difference. What kind of mentality does it take to knowingly break into another country uninvited? It's like people who break into houses, who usually make the news when the homeowner shoots them. Who does that? Who thinks it's a grand idea to go break in where they don't belong?
People who break an unjust law (resisting tyranny) cannot be both bottom of the barrel (unacceptable) and acceptable.
Oh, so do I understand correctly that you mean US immigration laws are tyrannical? Please explain.
it often involves simply moving them out of danger.
Well, yes, that's a decision many people do indeed make. I view it as cowardice. It's honorable to stand and fight, and to die in battle; it's dishonorable to flee.
Empathy is a critical component to a functional society, and a good member of society.
I do agree with this. I just don't think it applies to people who are outside of our society, or to people who broke into our home.
there is no such thing as equality of opportunity when there is a systemic problem with society.
I reject that premise as certified hooey. There's no systemic anything. It's absolute nonsense, rooted in a deranged rejection of western civilization. Sorry, I know that's rude, and I'm not trying to offend you personally. I appreciate how generally respectful this interaction has been. I just reject this notion out of hand.
immigrants are incredibly beneficial for the economy, and on average commit fewer crimes than U.S. citizens:
Maybe they lay low because they're afraid of getting deported? Honestly I don't care how good they are for the economy. I mean, slavery was extraordinarily good for the southern economy, if you don't count the slaves as people. So it's not an argument I find compelling. Some things are good for the economy, or great for the economy, and yet I still oppose them. (There are other things in this category, like Chinese imports.)
Well the people who choose to live there are a bit different from the ones who choose to illegally come to the US. How would you describe that difference?
I would not describe one. They’re the same people. The former are just the people who still have the means to get by, the latter are the ones who do not.
What kind of mentality does it take to knowingly break into another country uninvited?
It’s the mentality of somebody who’s life is in danger, or who is trying to provide for their family any way they can. And in case you didn’t know, roughly 50% of all illegal immigration occurs through legal methods of travel, as in, people overstay their welcome when traveling but were otherwise granted legal access into the country.
It’s like people who break into houses
People who break into houses do so because they are greedy. People who break into countries (generally) do so because they are trying to escape or provide for their family.
It’s honorable to stand and fight, and to die in battle; it’s dishonorable to flee.
It’s not a battle, it’s suicide. Until some major things change, cartels will always exist due to the black market demand for them. Even if you somehow successful destroy one another will fit its place overnight because of how incredibly profitable it is. Fighting a cartel will have no effect other than to end your own life.
There’s no systemic anything.
Why not? When black WW2 vets were denied low interest housing loans on the basis of race, and white WW2 vets were given them freely, how was that not a systemic inequality in opportunity?
Maybe they lay low because they’re afraid of getting deported?
It applies to all kinds of immigrants, legal and illegal. So reducing the influx of people who commit fewer crimes than the general population is short sighted.
Honestly I don’t care how good they are for the economy. I mean, slavery was extraordinarily good for the southern economy, if you don’t count the slaves as people.
These are people. And they are making the choice to move here and set up businesses of their own free choice. Comparing this to slavery is quite frankly silly.
They’re the same people.
That strikes me as an overly broad generalization, but maybe you're right.
It’s the mentality of somebody who’s life is in danger, or who is trying to provide for their family any way they can.
I suppose I understand that. But that doesn't excuse the behavior.
Say you were starving, and you encounter a man with food. You ask him to share it with you, and he rudely declines. Are you justified in slaughtering him to take his food? Of course not. What if it's to feed your family? No, that's still murder.
Now we're not really discussing murder here, but my point is that an immoral action is inherently immoral, and no amount of suffering or danger can justify an immoral action, nor warrant sympathy for one who commits it.
And in case you didn’t know, roughly 50% of all illegal immigration occurs […]
I did know that! It's an interesting fact. And I wish it was more common knowledge. It's why building the wall is absolutely not enough, though I'd like to see it built anyway as a preliminary baby-step.
Until some major things change, cartels will always exist due to the black market demand for them.
Some major things like what? I'd love to know how to end market demand, but that's a very hard problem to solve.
Fighting a cartel will have no effect other than to end your own life.
I dunno. If one dude goes up against a cartel army, sure, that's suicide. But if an entire country organizes into a strategic war on the cartels, I think the ensuing bloodbath would be the end of all cartels in that country.
When black WW2 vets were denied low interest housing loans on the basis of race, and white WW2 vets were given them freely, how was that not a systemic inequality in opportunity?
Racist behavior is despicable, and I think we agree on that. But the word "systemic" generally means invisible and imagined. You gave a great example of actual racism, and that sort of thing hasn't happened in a very long time in the US. Today's so-called racism is "systemic", meaning you have to have a rather active imagination to believe it exists.
Comparing this to slavery is quite frankly silly.
Yeah, I didn't mean it like that. I meant the argument that it's "good for the economy" doesn't convince me, just as someone could argue that slavery is good for the economy, and many economists argue that Chinese imports are good for the economy. I don't care. We can tank the economy for all I care. I don't find the argument compelling.
Some major things like what? I’d love to know how to end market demand, but that’s a very hard problem to solve.
OK, so to end the market demand for these drugs you first have to understand why they’re used at all. Everybody knows they are harmful and addictive, nobody starts using them without knowing that it will harm them. So why do they use them? Primarily it is because of isolation and poverty, which are the two biggest indicators of crime and drug use. Humans have a built in need for socialization, and without that we have to cope in some way. Poverty is very similar, when we do not have stability in our life, a good source of food and shelter, when our well-being is in bad shape, just like with isolation we need some way to cope. Often times that method is drug use.
So if we can tackle the things leading to this isolation and poverty, it can go a long way towards reducing people’s drug use. So lets look at the first of these source problems, and some solutions.
Isolation - Nowadays people have a great deal of difficulty maintaining communities. Part of that is poverty, but the largest part is how we structure our society. Here in the U.S. we don’t have any semblance of work-life balance. We are the most productive we have ever been and yet we work more than we have in almost a century. How can somebody be reasonably expected to have a social life when they must work two jobs to make ends meet? We also get far less time off than other developed nations, in large part because we have no guaranteed minimum time off. Other countries on the other hand get weeks of time off at a minimum. There is also the physical structure of our society, the city planning and infrastructure. Everything in the U.S. is car dependent. Do you want to go hang out with friends? Do you want to go to church? Do you want to volunteer? Doesn’t matter what activity you want to do, you are required to get their by car because no other valid options exist. We don’t have the freedom to travel to places through other means because all cities everywhere are built for cars and only cars. It is also just dangerous to travel by foot or by bicycle in the U.S. because so little thought is put into the safety of pedestrians. Even if something is technically within walking/biking distance, there may be no sidewalk, pedestrian barriers, or trees. We also do not have the density or mixed use zoning that is needed to allow people to make strong communities in our neighborhoods. Everything is built too far spaced out when it could easily be built with community in mind.
So to fix the isolation we need:
- More mixed use & higher density zoning
- Better public transportation support
- Better pedestrian safety
- Minimum time off requirements
- U.S. GDP/Productivity rates need to be inversely tied to quantity of working hours without effecting wages
So that more or less covers the easy part, isolation. Poverty is a whole other monster.
Poverty - So this is a two part issue, a wage issue and a price issue. On the wage side of things, we as a society simply are not paid enough. Productivity rates have grown massively, but wages have not. And all that extra wealth that is being created is going directly to the rich. As a result people are impoverished. CEOs, company owners and shareholders take home extreme levels of wealth while your average Joe takes home crumbs at best. CEOs currently get paid somewhere on the order of 670 times as much as the lowest paid workers. CEOs are not working 670 times harder than any other worker out there. Our country has plenty of wealth to make sure everybody has a stable food source and secure housing, but the wealth is distributed such that it always goes to the rich. Part two of the poverty issue, is the price issue. Whether it is for pharmaceuticals, college, housing, or just groceries, the prices of everything have gotten completely out of hand. And that’s not because these things take much more to manufacture/maintain. The cost to manufacture insulin is about $6 a vial yet it is sold for $300 at least for example. Colleges waits shit loads of their money on administration and sports. Housing is intentionally kept scarce to keep prices up, etc. Corporations and landlords are extracting every single ounce of wealth out of us as they possibly can, and it has immensely damage our society through poverty.
There is a lot more to it than that, but I think you get the gist. So to fix this, some of the things we will need to see is:
- Wages need to match productivity rates
- Minimum wage should return to being a living wage as it was originally intended to be, and to keep it that way it needs to be tied to inflation
- Regulation must stop CEOs & the rich from being paid at such high rates. I think a limit of 10 to 1 would be reasonable, as in for every 1 dollar the lowest paid employ is paid, the highest can only be paid 10. And that should include all methods of payment/benefits.
- Regulation for price gouging needs to be tightened to stop pharmaceutical companies from continuing their robbery of our citizens
- Housing needs an overhaul, I’d personally recommend georgism, massive investments in market rate housing construction, and zoning overhauls to allow for higher density housing & mixed use zones
- Education needs an overhaul as well. We ought to catch up with the rest of developed nations to have free higher education, but that is also it’s own massive topic.
- Healthcare, same as education, we need to catch up with the rest of the developed world to have medicare for all. Our for-profit healthcare system has utterly failed us, again it’s own massive topic.
And so that covers largely the source reasons why people start drug use in the first place. But there is still more to it. The third main category of fix for the cartels would be ending the war on drugs. It’s been ~50 years of trying to get rid of drugs and we are no closer to doing so. Drugs are more potent, dangerous, and available than they ever have been. If we were to decriminalize use of them we would save billions of dollars that could instead go towards the above fixes, and it would also reduce the profitability of the cartel’s trade. If somebody is addicted to a drug, they should have a harm reduction program to help them through it. If the drugs on the street are more expensive, dirtier and riskier than what a free prescription can get them, then cartels would evaporate as they would have no customers. Other nations have tried this approach, and study after study shows that it is the most effective way to help people stop using drugs off the street, and to stop using drugs all together.
The Productivity–Pay Gap
The huge gap between rising incomes at the top and stagnating pay for the rest of us shows that workers are no longer benefiting from their rising productivity. Before 1979, worker pay and productivity grew in tandem. But since 1979, productivity has grown eight times faster than typical worker pay (hourly compensation of production/nonsupervisory workers).
I find it frustrating and disappointing that kbin didn't notify me of this reply, particularly since you put so much effort into writing it. I'm glad I noticed it.
Thank you for your well thought-out reply on this. We are certainly coming from opposite perspectives, and I disagree with you on almost every point you made, which is really saying something, because you made a lot of points.
My perspective FWIW is that regulations of business are always bad. America is supposed to be the land of the free, meaning all regulations of business should be prohibited, IMHO.
To my view, a major reason for the drug problem comes down to that same '62 SCOTUS decision. Because when we treat our bodies as God's abode, and when we strive to be sober, drug abuse isn't an option. And as kids have grown up without prayer, we've seen secularism continually rise along with depression and drug abuse.
That being said, I recognize that drug abuse existed before '62, and indeed has existed since time immemorial. And I recognize that even though I disagree with most of your points, isolation and poverty indeed may be underlying causes, in conjunction with secularism.
I don't have much more to say on the topic, but thank you again for that very well thought out reply. I looked up Georgism and learned what it's all about, so thank you.
I disagree with you on almost every point you made, which is really saying something
I suspected as much.
My perspective FWIW is that regulations of business are always bad.
A government must regulate businesses or else they become monopolies, price gougers, environmental disasters, etc. A truly free market will always result in monopolies. A free market is a competition, but competitions have winners, and winners are monopolies.
America is supposed to be the land of the free
How can we be free if we are slaves to corporations?
a major reason for the drug problem comes down to that same '62 SCOTUS decision
Punishing drug addicts for being drug addicts does nothing to help them, it just makes it worse. If you truly want to help people and to make society healthy, you have to help people where they are at.
Because when we treat our bodies as God’s abode, and when we strive to be sober, drug abuse isn’t an option.
That simply isn’t an effective way of dealing with drug abuse.
And as kids have grown up without prayer, we’ve seen secularism continually rise along with depression and drug abuse.
Correlation does not imply causation.
, in conjunction with secularism.
Secularism is not the problem here.
I looked up Georgism and learned what it’s all about, so thank you.
You are welcome.
I suspected as much.
So what are you doing in a conservative place? Did you come here just to pick a fight? I do enjoy our dialog, but the thing is called "conservative", so I expect everyone here to be some variant of conservative.
or else they become monopolies
Entirely false. Monopolies are always created with government assistance, erecting barriers to entry for competing startups.
slaves to corporations
Do you really believe that? We're all free to start our own companies, as I and most of my friends and family have at some point in our lives. That's the whole point of being an American. If you don't like your job, you're free to get another, and once you have some experience you can go into business for yourself. Nobody's a slave to a corporation. That's patently absurd.
Punishing drug addicts for being drug addicts does nothing to help them
Yeah but where did I ever suggest we should do that?
Correlation does not imply causation.
True. It's a multifaceted set of problems for sure. I do think the elimination of school prayer was a root cause, but that hunch is impossible to prove.
Secularism is not the problem here.
Secularism is always a problem, wherever it exists.
In the context of drug (including alcohol) abuse, the only method of treatment we have that's 100% effective is salvation. The only reason it's not universally offered as a known cure is because so many people are afraid to advocate for Christianity. But it works, and it works astonishingly well.
So what are you doing in a conservative place?
I’m here because I like talking with people I disagree with, I enjoy debate, and because this place would otherwise be an echo chamber. And echo chambers are a big part of why our country is so fucked right now.
Entirely false. Monopolies are always created with government assistance, erecting barriers to entry for competing startups.
That’s one of the ways that monopolies are created, but not the only way.
Take a look at what Walmart did in the 90s and early 2000s. Walmart intentional set profits below the cost to produce their items, and in doing so the local competition could not beat their prices due to differences in business size, and so countless small businesses died. Then once all those businesses died Walmart drove their prices up.
Another way they become monopolies is by buying out the competition. Google, Facebook, Microsoft, and Apple are good examples of this. Any time another tech business looks like it will become profitable or a competitor, they buy it up. From their they either kill it, or they incorporate it to get a wide monopoly. Either way they accomplish their goal of destroying competition.
Then there is the tall monopolies where the entire production chain is all owned by one company, from raw material to finished and sold product. Amazon is a good example of this. They used to only be a book marketplace, then an everything marketplace, and now they are a manufacturer as well. The Amazon Basics bran is replacing load s of items on their store.
None of the above monopoly strategies involve government regulation. It’s all just capitalism. Now I will grant you that government regulation can also be a source of monopolies, but it is far from the only source.
Do you really believe that?
Absolutely. We cannot have freedom if corporations control everything, which they basically do. They control the politicians, the regulation, what you can buy, where you can buy, what jobs are available, what housing you can live in, etc. And they spend every day doing everything in their power to expand that influence.
Not everybody can start their own company. That takes thousands of dollars, a lot of luck, and a lot of business skills.
And our freedom to move to another job is severely limited, and often moot. If a slave can choose their slave owner, but is still a slave, then they are still a slave. Choosing another corporation to effectively own you doesn’t make you any more free when they are stepping on your neck at company A, B, C, all the way to Z.
Yeah but where did I ever suggest we should do that?
You said that “a major reason for the drug problem comes down to that same '62 SCOTUS decision” so I assumed you were talking about Robinson v California being a mistake, and that we should indeed punish addicts for being addicts. Perhaps I have misunderstood.
Secularism is always a problem, wherever it exists.
Secularism is the lifeblood of our country and modern, developed nations. Without it we would have a whole extra level of oppression to deal with on top of the existing stuff.
In the context of drug (including alcohol) abuse, the only method of treatment we have that’s 100% effective is salvation
Do you have any scientific evidence to verify this?
Because the closest thing I can think of is the 12 step program, which has highly religious connections, often times outright christians ones, and yet their success rate is no better than chance.
The only reason it’s not universally offered as a known cure is because so many people are afraid to advocate for Christianity.
I would suspect it is instead because proselytizing to people who are not in a healthy state of mind and are vulnerable is not an ethical solution, and so medical professionals generally avoid it.
I’m here because I like talking with people I disagree with
I think you're looking for some kind of political debate forum. I can't speak for the moderator or anyone else here, but coming from reddit I expect this to be a place for conservatives to come together and build upon a shared perspective of the world.
None of the above monopoly strategies involve government regulation.
Completely false. Walmart and Amazon are both Delaware corporations, which means they're governed by Delaware's particular corporate law. Both are publicly held, which additionally obligates them to follow the strict rules of the SEC, including quarterly earnings reports. Moreover federal international trade agreements and laws regarding imports and exports, including tax laws, deeply impact both Walmart and Amazon. A proper reply would be book-length, but suffice it to say every single decision made at Walmart and Amazon are deeply entwined with government regulations.
We cannot have freedom if corporations control everything, which they basically do.
Corporations are people. They are literally people. Have you never worked in a corporation? They're not some kind of mythical beast. They're just every-day Americans working for a living.
Not everybody can start their own company. That takes thousands of dollars, a lot of luck, and a lot of business skills.
Hogwash. You can do it with less than $1 and entrepreneurial spirit. There are so many rags-to-riches stories that define our blessed country, and more appear every day. It sounds like you're just not trying hard enough. Maybe you don't want it bad enough. And if so that's fine, but don't pretend it's impossible.
If a slave can choose their slave owner, but is still a slave, then they are still a slave.
You have absolutely no clue what slavery is. That's bizarre. Normal commercial life in a free market is about as far away from slavery as possible. You can become a billionaire or a beach bum, or anything in between. It's completely up to you, and nobody's going to come around and whip you to death if you don't get back to work.
when they are stepping on your neck
What on earth are you talking about? You sound like you've never had a real job, but you've spent years reading Marx. This is delusional.
I assumed you were talking about Robinson v California being a mistake, and that we should indeed punish addicts for being addicts. Perhaps I have misunderstood.
The two relevant cases are Engel v. Vitale (1962) and Abington School District v. Schempp (1963).
Secularism is the lifeblood of our country and modern, developed nations. Without it we would have a whole extra level of oppression to deal with on top of the existing stuff.
Wow, no. What? Secularism is the lifeblood of depraved satanists who are diligently working to destroy everything we hold dear. Through Christ alone can we receive freedom from sin, and indeed the entire purpose of American freedom is to worship God and do His will. Oppression happens when we lack that freedom. You have it precisely backwards.
Do you have any scientific evidence to verify this?
Well, a web search turned up this as the first result:
[…], we conclude that the value of faith-oriented approaches to substance abuse prevention and recovery is indisputable. And, by extension, we also conclude that the decline in religious affiliation in the USA is not only a concern for religious organizations but constitutes a national health concern.
I haven't read that whole study, and I don't know their methodology, so they may well cite an efficacy below 100%. Personally I arrive at 100% by deduction: those who are saved evidence their salvation by being shielded from temptation to abuse drugs, while anyone lacking that evidence is clearly not yet saved.
Whatever the methodology, though, claiming that "their success rate is no better than chance" is a lie based on a downright anti-Christian bias.
I would suspect it is instead because proselytizing to people who are not in a healthy state of mind and are vulnerable is not an ethical solution, and so medical professionals generally avoid it.
It is the sick who need a physician. Medical professionals (like most other people) generally avoid proselytizing to everyone under all professional circumstances.
I also needed to split this up, so this is part 1.
I think you're looking for some kind of political debate forum.
I find such forums to usually be low quality, but that's just my opinion.
Walmart and Amazon are both Delaware corporations, which means they're governed by Delaware's particular corporate law. Both are publicly held, which additionally obligates them to follow the strict rules of the SEC
every single decision made at Walmart and Amazon are deeply entwined with government regulations.
While true, that doesn't change anything. Corporations can still be monopolies while being legal if the law is insufficient to prevent natural monopolies.
Corporations are people. They are literally people.
Corporations are organizations of people. But regardless of what you define them as, people or organizations, you cannot have freedom if corporations control everything. Just as a dictator (person) prevents freedom, so too can companies (people).
Hogwash. You can do it with less than $1 and entrepreneurial spirit.
You can definitely do that but your chances of success are not high.
There are so many rags-to-riches stories that define our blessed country
And those stories have the same chances of winning the lottery. Sure people win the lottery all the time, but that doesn't mean everyone will.
Maybe you don't want it bad enough. And if so that's fine, but don't pretend it's impossible.
I'm not pretending it's impossible. I am stating the fact that it is unreasonable for everybody to just create a new business and live in la la land. Sometimes fantasies come true, but they don't always.
You have absolutely no clue what slavery is.
I am using hyperbole. I am not stating that what we experience in America is literal chattel slavery. The point is that you can't just move to a different job to escape abuse when basically all american jobs are abusive. You can't just have freedom against buying from walmart when walmart is the only store within a 4hr drive. Does that clarify where I am coming from better?
What on earth are you talking about? You sound like you've never had a real job, but you've spent years reading Marx. This is delusional.
I am talking about how jobs control when you work, how you work, what you say, what you do. They control the law, politicians, what we buy, how we buy it. They control the media and therefore the narrative. Corporations have such an immense control over american life. We are not ranked number one in the world freedom index for a reason, we aren't actually even in the top 10. The top 10 is mostly comprised of European countries.
And I'm not going to address the "real job" part because that is a true scottsman fallacy waiting to happen. I will tell you this, I have never read Marx, I do not label myself a marxists, and I have had several jobs over the years at this point.
The two relevant cases are Engel v. Vitale (1962) and Abington School District v. Schempp (1963).
Ok, then I take back what I said when I though you were referencing Robinson v California/punishing drug addicts for being drug addicts. I should have clarified which decision you meant first. I think we already know where we both stand on religion in schools, so I will move on.
Secularism is the lifeblood of depraved satanists who are diligently working to destroy everything we hold dear.
Secularism is what allows us to have the freedom to choose a religion. It is the wall between church and state that prevents religion from destroying people's freedoms, and it is what prevents the government from imposing on religions. It is one of the core founding principles of our country as evidenced by the first amendment establishment clause, and everything the founding fathers have said about the nature of the state/church.
and indeed the entire purpose of American freedom is to worship God and do His will
The purpose of american freedom is for the sake of freedom itself. No part of the constitution mentions god or worship. And the only mention of religion states that congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion.
Reply to "just my opinion", Part 2 of 2:
I am talking about how jobs control when you work, how you work, what you say, what you do. They control the law, politicians, what we buy, how we buy it. They control the media and therefore the narrative. Corporations have such an immense control over american life.
My proverbial fresh fruit vendor mentions to me that he's struggling to keep up with demand, so I tell him I can help him sell his fruit, and I'll do it for a 15% commission. He bargains me down to 10%, and we have an agreement. He tells me which hours he's open and I tell him I sell his fruit 24/7. After a few months, he tells me I should wear a more professional looking shirt, and I reply that his sales are up 30% MoM with me running sales, but if he really wants to control my wardrobe I'll go sell for the competing fruit stand over there. How's exactly am I being controlled? I'm not; I'm in control of my own labor, selling it at an agreeable rate.
You also mentioned that corporations control politicians. To the degree that's true, it's only because our government is so bloated that corporations are incentivized to do so. If we could stick to the 10th Amendment and return the government to its proper 18th Century size, there'd be nothing for lobbyists to do. The federal government should be responsible for almost nothing. It should be tiny. That's the root of the problem you blame on corporations. Meanwhile, every leftist continues to push for a bigger and bigger government.
We are not ranked number one in the world freedom index for a reason, we aren't actually even in the top 10. The top 10 is mostly comprised of European countries.
I'm not sure what the "world freedom index" is, but according to the 2023 Index of Economic Freedom, the US ranks 25 with the following advice:
The U.S. economy faces enormous challenges. Big-government policies have eroded limits on government, public spending continues to rise, and the regulatory burden on business has increased. Restoring the U.S. economy to the status of “free” will require significant changes to reduce the size and scope of government.
Secularism is what allows us to have the freedom to choose a religion. It is the wall between church and state that prevents religion from destroying people's freedoms, and it is what prevents the government from imposing on religions. It is one of the core founding principles of our country as evidenced by the first amendment establishment clause, and everything the founding fathers have said about the nature of the state/church.
When I say "secularism", I'm referring to the social trend of reduced church membership, and the growing trend of people to openly embrace atheism and agnosticism without a hint of shame. Every one of us is either with God or with Satan, and so by secularism I mean the trend of people abandoning God to embrace Satan.
Which is to say, we can really talk past each other sometimes.
The purpose of american freedom is for the sake of freedom itself. No part of the constitution mentions god or worship. And the only mention of religion states that congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion.
What a libertine and hedonistic notion of freedom. It has no basis in history, our culture, or reality, all of which are essentially Christian.
Our culture's founding document is built upon a theological proposition:
[…] that [all men] are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, […]
Our entire culture is built upon that, a theological proposition.
And if you read all of the old American documents, almost all of them include copious quotes from the Bible, which you probably don't even recognize if you're an atheist. Christianity runs through every fiber of our being as a nation. God is our purpose for being, our purpose for living, and our purpose for freedom. That would not have been a contentious assertion in the past.
it's only because our government is so bloated that corporations are incentivized to do so.
Corporations are always incentivized to do so regardless of government size. If you're a corporation and you have the power to get politicians to get a law passed, then the law gets passed even if the fed is tiny.
That's the root of the problem you blame on corporations.
The root problem is lobbying (bribery) being legal. Without it we would be in a far better place.
Meanwhile, every leftist continues to push for a bigger and bigger government.
I think the issue of government size is more nuanced than that. There are things that republicans want that would make the government bigger, and there are things that democrats/leftists want that would make it smaller.
I'm not sure what the "world freedom index" is, but according to the 2023 Index of Economic Freedom, the US ranks 25 with the following advice:
There is definitely some regulation that needs to be abandoned, certain zoning laws immediately come to mind, but the largest reason why we have so little freedom here in comparison is because of government surveillance programs, corporate control, etc.
And ranking freedom solely on economic freedom is not a good methodology.
When I say "secularism", I'm referring to the social trend of reduced church membership
I don't want to make this a debate over definition, but that isn't anywhere close to the definition of secularism:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secularism
and the growing trend of people to openly embrace atheism and agnosticism without a hint of shame. Every one of us is either with God or with Satan, and so by secularism I mean the trend of people abandoning God to embrace Satan.
Atheism and agnosticism is not something to be ashamed about. People should only believe things in which their is sufficient evidence for, and there is insufficient evidence for religion. And atheism is not an embrace of Satan, we atheists don't believe in Satan either.
It has no basis in history, our culture, or reality, all of which are essentially Christian.
Christianity runs through every fiber of our being as a nation.
I'll refer you to my other post that had quotes from the founding fathers explicitly stating that the U.S. was not founded as a christian nation.
…] that [all men] are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness
The delcaration of independence is not a legal document or part of american law. Only the constitution is the head of american law and it doesn't say anything about a creator, chrisitianity, etc.
almost all of them include copious quotes from the Bible, which you probably don't even recognize if you're an atheist.
I've spent the better part of two decades debating with christians online in various forums, so I have read quite a lot of it at this point.
Reply to "just my opinion", Part 1 of 2:
I find such forums to usually be low quality, but that's just my opinion.
I thought the Capitalism vs Socialism subreddit was pretty great, though I didn't spend a ton of time there, and I was mostly a lurker. But on several occasions I was impressed by the level of discourse there.
Why don't you start you own? Establish your own rules, and set your own culture. I know such things can be difficult to get off the ground, but maybe it's worth a try.
if the law is insufficient to prevent natural monopolies
Well it's theoretically impossible (or extremely hard) to prevent natural monopolies, which is why they're called natural. In practice, though, there's not many of them. Usually they're owned by a municipality, such as water supply for urban folks who lack their own wells, and waste processing for the same folks who lack septic tanks. Physical constraints make competition difficult in these markets.
Most large corporations are groups that grow vastly larger than their natural size due to government assistance and encouragement.
A tiny government naturally coincides with tiny businesses. Consider our founding culture in the Eighteenth Century; the big multinational companies were the Dutch East India Trading Co and the East India Co, both of which were state-chartered monopolies. By contrast, the nascent US flourished with only tiny businesses and family farms. That is our natural business culture, to which we should strive to return.
Just as a dictator (person) prevents freedom, so too can companies (people).
Apples and oranges.
- A dictator says "everyone must obey me," and sends out armed forces to disarm the people and enforce the dictator's laws.
- A company offers products and services for sale in a marketplace, which people are free to buy if they want, or not to buy if they don't want. A company may employ people in a voluntary arrangement where employees sell their labor to the company for a fair price, and are free to seek employment elsewhere for a better price if they so choose.
When you picture a company, think of a man with a fruit cart selling fresh fruit at a farmer's market — that's the quintessential company. His family are back home picking fruit on the family farm, while he heads to market to compete against the other vendors. Customers are free to compare which fruit vendor offers the freshest fruit, and buy a little, or a lot, or none at all.
The fact that you're comparing a fruit vendor, who offers you a fresh apricot for 7¢, to a blood-thirsty dictator who proclaims "everyone must placate those afflicted with gender dysphoria, on penalty of death" is a strain of the imagination. A company is a collective of practitioners of freedom.
You can definitely do that but your chances of success are not high.
True, but so? You keep trying and failing until you succeed. That's the American way.
And those stories have the same chances of winning the lottery.
It's fundamentally different. The lottery is pure chance, while building a business is a measure of one's intelligence and drive to succeed.
I'm not pretending it's impossible. I am stating the fact that it is unreasonable for everybody to just create a new business and live in la la land. Sometimes fantasies come true, but they don't always.
It's hardly a fantasy. It's the American way. And it's hardly "la la land". Have you never started your own business?
you can't just move to a different job to escape abuse when basically all american jobs are abusive.
What do you mean by "abusive"? Big bad boss man said you need to show up on time, or else you'll get fired? No jobs are abusive. They're voluntary agreements for the sale of one's labor. Nothing more, nothing less.
You can't just have freedom against buying from walmart when walmart is the only store within a 4hr drive. Does that clarify where I am coming from better?
It doesn't, because I live in one of the most rural places in the country, and I barely ever shop at Walmart.
Why don't you start you own? Establish your own rules, and set your own culture. I know such things can be difficult to get off the ground, but maybe it's worth a try.
I really just don't have as much free time as I'd like. I have a full time job, a disabled girl friend, ~3 active friend/family groups, etc. At best I get an hour or two a day to myself and I'd rather do something else other than moderating.
Well it's theoretically impossible (or extremely hard) to prevent natural monopolies, which is why they're called natural.
It's definitely hard, but not impossible.
A tiny government naturally coincides with tiny businesses.
Historically that is not true. What you're describing is laissez-faire capitalism, and every time it has been tried it has been an objective failure. It doesn't result in tiny businesses, it results in huge ones that create corporate towns.
A dictator says "everyone must obey me," and sends out armed forces to disarm the people and enforce the dictator's laws.
Companies do just the same when given the opportunity. They just hire mercenaries and assassins, and that's where the term "bannana republic" comes from.
And armed forces aren't the only way authoritarians control the people, they also do so through law, which the corporations control.
The fact that you're comparing a fruit vendor
I'm not talking about small family owned businesses, I am talking about mega-corporations. Google, microsoft, amazon, meta, etc.
A company is a collective of practitioners of freedom.
When the United Fruit Company toppled governments in latin america, they were in fact not practicioners of freedom. Companies are just as capable of subverting the will of the people and destroying freedoms as dictators.
You keep trying and failing until you succeed. That's the American way.
You keep failing until you starve to death, the medical debt collectors come, etc. The american dream has long been dead because we do not live in a society with social mobility.
Have you never started your own business?
I am already struggling to pay for rent, food, and utility bills, and soon my student debt will add to that. I do not have anywhere near the amount of money to start one.
What do you mean by "abusive"?
I'm talking about violations of labor laws that go unpunished, workplace injuries, poverty wages, excessive hours, repetitive strain injury, wage theft.
https://www.greenamerica.org/choose-fair-labor/us-companies-exploiting-workers
https://apnews.com/article/how-companies-rip-off-poor-employees-6c5364b4f9c69d9bc1b0093519935a5a
https://hbr.org/2020/06/times-up-for-toxic-workplaces
Not all companies are bad ones to work at, but my point is that not everybody can just up and move to a new job when there are so many companies that are like this.
It doesn't, because I live in one of the most rural places in the country, and I barely ever shop at Walmart.
Then it sounds like you're lucky.
Well, a web search turned up this as the first result:
That's a meta study, and the only study they cite which mentions any control group only controls for depression. None of that controls for community engagement/health/connections, which is what I argue is the true problem. I would need better evidence than this.
Personally I arrive at 100% by deduction
The study you cited only lists a 33% change in drug use:
"In their study, Chen and VanderWeele (2018) found that people who attended religious services at least weekly in childhood and adolescence were 33% less likely to use illegal drugs."
Additionally your study cites this graph:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6759672/bin/10943_2019_876_Fig4_HTML.jpg
Now it has been a while since my last statistics class, so I don't recall the exact methodology to determine likelyhood of causality between these two lines, however just from a quick glance these two rates seem to have a low/medium correlation. They wander closer and farther apart over the 20 years of this graph, and it seems that the drug death rate precedes the religious affiliation rate, which is the reverse of what we would expect if religious affiliation was causing drug deaths.
This all has made me curious enough to do some napkin math myself. Now this is incredibly terrible methodology, but if what you say is true then it should be apparent. I charted countries by irreligiosity, christianity, and drug use, and it doesn't look like there is any correlation:
https://i.imgur.com/VR58Byw.png
This is a graph of irreligiosity vs drug use. There isn't much of a correlation here if any. If being an atheist/agnostic/none/etc made you more likely to be a drug user, we should expect a nice smooth rise in drug use correlated with atheism. But that's not what happens here in this chart.
https://i.imgur.com/V9HHLBl.png
This chart is basically the same thing, but ordered by how christian each country is. If christianity/Jesus/god was anywhere close to 100% efficicacy against drug use, we should expect to see a similarly nice smooth graph, correlating drug use inversely with christianity. But that's also not what happens here.
So if you're right, that it is a 100% rate, if your deduction is correct, then why don't we see trends that support that?
Here is where I pulled the data from:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_by_country
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_irreligion
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/drug-use-by-country
Whatever the methodology, though, claiming that "their success rate is no better than chance" is a lie based on a downright anti-Christian bias.
I definitely have an anti-christian bias, and I will readily admit that. However it isn't a lie, nor is it based on my bias. If I recall there was a leaked report from AA floating around somewhere online from AA, they did a study to see how effective their program was, and discovered it was no better than chance. I'll see if I can find it another time when I get the chance. For now this has already been a lot to compile, especially the two charts I made.
None of that controls for community engagement/health/connections, which is what I argue is the true problem. I would need better evidence than this.
Not only that, but it seems that this study at best only establishes correlation, not causation, nor the direction of causation.
The study you cited only lists a 33% change in drug use:
"In their study, Chen and VanderWeele (2018) found that people who attended religious services at least weekly in childhood and adolescence were 33% less likely to use illegal drugs."
Once again, we seem to be talking past each other. That 33% does not apply to what I meant.
I'll try to explain more clearly.
- A drug abuser is someone who does not understand that their body is meant to be the temple of the Holy Spirit.
- The attendance of religious services is not a condition of salvation.
- To be saved, one must accept Christ Jesus as Lord and Savior, and repent.
- Once saved, and born again, one's behavior exhibits noticeable changes.
- One such change resulting from salvation is usually a desire to attend religious services.
- Another such change resulting from salvation is the view of one's body as the temple of the Holy Spirit, not to be polluted with drugs.
- Another such change resulting from salvation is the ability to pray to Jesus that we may be shielded from temptation, so if one is tempted to sin with drug abuse, that temptation may be overcome through prayer.
So if you're right, that it is a 100% rate, if your deduction is correct, then why don't we see trends that support that?
Thank you for your charts and your deductions. I appreciate your effort to communicate those ideas.
The point that I was trying to make, though, when I claimed 100% efficacy, is that self-reported religious affiliation is not important, but rather what is important is salvation. 100% of those saved are able to successfully pray to be shielded from temptation to sin, and are thereby able to overcome their drug addictions. Anyone who claims a religious affiliation but is unable to kick their nasty drug habit has clearly not yet been saved. This is how we can deduce 100% as a priori knowledge.
I definitely have an anti-christian bias, and I will readily admit that.
Thank you for admitting bias! I wish that was commonplace. I might just go update my profile with a list of self-admitted biases, if I can manage to produce a list of them all.
However it isn't a lie, nor is it based on my bias. If I recall there was a leaked report from AA floating around somewhere online from AA, they did a study to see how effective their program was, and discovered it was no better than chance.
I'll read it if you find it, but I don't think it could convince me that legitimate salvation has anything less than 100% efficacy. Their methodology must have been testing for something else.
The point that I was trying to make, though, when I claimed 100% efficacy, is that self-reported religious affiliation is not important, but rather what is important is salvation.
And salvation rates would presumably be tied to religious affiliation rates. A country with 0 christians will have 0 saved people, and a country with n christians will have n * (unknown multiplier) saved people. Does that make sense?
If so you can understand that these charts should still show the effect.
I might just go update my profile with a list of self-admitted biases, if I can manage to produce a list of them all.
I could help you with that if you like lol.
I'll read it if you find it, but I don't think it could convince me that legitimate salvation has anything less than 100% efficacy. Their methodology must have been testing for something else.
If I recall, it was simply looking at recidivism rates for members of AA.
Your best and brightest, folks
Its the only way to make them listen, to make them suffer as we have.
tallwookiedeport all illegal aliens to their country of origin. do it immediately.
MelpomeneIf only the Native Americans had implemented this policy when all those illegals from Europe were crossing into their territory back in the 1400's.
no one is native to the American continents - humanity is native to Africa and nowhere else.
It's almost like you intentionally ignored the relevant part. The current United States citizens aren't native either. Therefore, guess we should allow everyone if you're implying that the Native Americans had no claim.
All the more reason to deport illegals.
So when are you booking your flight?
Im legal, because i was born here.
These people are literally legal. If they weren’t, they wouldn’t be here.
Migrant is a euphemism for illegal immigrant, and you know it.
…what about people who legally immigrate and come through legal border crossings, such as these?