Mastodawn

Macleod Sawyer Jul 31, 2023

Fabio Manganiello

The engineers who designed the #Voyager probes half a century ago even thought of the possibility that a wrong sequence of commands may point the antenna dish away from earth (like someone did a couple of days ago).

And they implemented a self-adjusting mechanism that a few times a year scans the positions of a few known stars to infer the position of the earth, and point back the antenna in the right direction.

50 years later, these wonderful machines are still working, tens of billions of km away from earth, with only 69 KB of RAM, and even a wrong sequence of commands won't put them out of use, while nowadays 4 GB of RAM aren't even enough to start VsCode or IntelliJ.

The more I understand how they were designed, the more I feel like an early Medieval engineer looking at the Pantheon or other marvels of Roman architecture. Some amazing skills, knowledge and attention to details have been lost from that generation to ours.

EndlessMason Jul 30, 2023

@blacklight what if we were the kids on the lawn all along?! 🙀

Apuntes de ciencia Jul 30, 2023

@blacklight The knowledge and attention to details in today onboard software systems is equivalent to that of those days, I assure you 🛰️

steeph's old profile – Now at @[email protected]Jul 30, 2023

@ApuntesCiencia @blacklight I don't know in what way, but I'd like to read more about that.

Apuntes de ciencia Jul 30, 2023

@steeph @blacklight I make satellite control centers for a living, and in my company there is a division fully devoted to onboard software, so I’m exposed to that as well. There is this concept of autonomy by which space vehicles need to be fully resilient to ground and or communications mishaps. In case you are interested I recommend this book https://amzn.eu/d/grBBm12

Amazon.es

Fabio Manganiello Jul 30, 2023

@ApuntesCiencia if you mean in aerospace engineering, I may believe you - I've seen seminars from ESA on how they use Ada for fault-proof code and it's beyond impressive.

If you mean commercial code outside of aerospace... Well, it's another thing.

Apuntes de ciencia Jul 30, 2023

@blacklight I meant aerospace only, yes. But both institutional (such as ESA) and commercial (such as my company) at the end of the day, shall fly stuff. I make satellite control centers for a living, and in my company there is a division fully devoted to onboard software, so I’m exposed to that as well. I learnt Ada as part of my internal training, big fun.

Patrick Van Oosterwijck Jul 31, 2023

@ApuntesCiencia @blacklight Sadly I know better.

matt Jul 31, 2023

@ApuntesCiencia @blacklight what is/are 'onboard software systems' ?

Apuntes de ciencia Jul 31, 2023

@maphew @blacklight Onboard SW refers to software that runs within a vehicle (ship, car, aircraft…). Due to déformation professionnelle I use it for SW that runs aboard spacecrafts

David J. Atkinson Aug 2, 2023

@blacklight @maphew @ApuntesCiencia “Embedded software controllers”

Apuntes de ciencia Aug 2, 2023

@meltedcheese @blacklight @maphew Technically “onboard” refers to vehicles (cars, ships, spacecrafts…) while “embedded” systems run everywhere, from a washing machine to a smart cable

David J. Atkinson Aug 2, 2023

@blacklight @maphew @ApuntesCiencia A distinction without a difference:)

terminal_blinker

@ApuntesCiencia @meltedcheese @blacklight @maphew do you have seen changes on the quality of onboard system.

I'm asking because you mentioned cars. And well they are not as reliable.

Apuntes de ciencia Aug 12, 2023

@Kyebr @meltedcheese @blacklight @maphew No, sorry. My expertise is spacecrafts and, even then, I don't do onboard but ground systems, although I'm somewhat exposed to those as well as you may imagine (the space and the ground segments talk to each other...)

Charlie Stross Jul 30, 2023

@blacklight Only 69Kb of RAM? So I'm guessing you never ran VisiCalc on a 48Kb Apple II …

Anna Nicholson Jul 31, 2023

@cstross @blacklight 48 KiB? Ha! 😉

I used Visicalc on a *32 KiB* CBM 8032!

Anna Nicholson Jul 31, 2023

@cstross @blacklight To be fair, though, if I walked round the back of it, it didn’t automatically turn to face me 😂

szescstopni Jul 30, 2023

@blacklight @somcak The skills and knowledge are still there, but they're being blocked to save a bit on expenses.

Threadbane Jul 30, 2023

@szescstopni @blacklight
I don't think the skills and knowledge actually ARE still there. "People" don't write software anymore, code generators do. Drag and drop and the machine generates javascript or C++ or whatever.

Mattias Schlenker Jul 30, 2023

@Threadbane @szescstopni @blacklight Ever programmed for an ATtiny?

Thomas Jul 30, 2023

@Threadbane @szescstopni @blacklight Not all of them, I can assure you :-)
Btw, here is a modern Forth with compiler/interpreter that's quite happy with 1K RAM and 4K ROM:

https://github.com/TG9541/stm8ef

GitHub - TG9541/stm8ef: STM8 eForth - a user friendly Forth for simple µCs with docs

STM8 eForth - a user friendly Forth for simple µCs with docs - TG9541/stm8ef

GitHub

LisPi Jul 30, 2023

@Threadbane @szescstopni @blacklight Other than #Scratch #VisualProgramming is exceedingly rare as far as I know.

Crazy Pony Jul 31, 2023

@Threadbane @szescstopni @blacklight
We need an abstraction layer that code can run on all the different abstraction layers on the market

Mekki Sep 20, 2023

@crazy_pony @Threadbane @szescstopni @blacklight Obligatory: https://xkcd.com/927/ - s/standard/abstraction layer/g

Standards

xkcd

Rui Malheiro Jul 30, 2023

@blacklight this. There was a brief period of time when knowledge, discovery and the advancement of science was the goal. It was replaced by profit, greed and the enrichment of a few.
Engineers and scientists still have the same level of commitment to detail and perfection, but they are mostly prevented by greedy, bastard #captilalists that don't see further than their own selfish interests.

NKT Jul 30, 2023

@chromatic @blacklight Do you want a follow? Because that's how you get a follow!

Threadbane Jul 30, 2023

@blacklight
Great toot! The Voyager was truly an amazing feat!
And not to be picky, but the Pantheon is Ancient Greek. 8^)

justpeachy Jul 30, 2023

@Threadbane @blacklight the Parthenon is Greek, the Pantheon is Roman

Threadbane Jul 30, 2023

@justpeachy @blacklight
My god, I'm MORTIFIED! 8^) You are absolutely correct. I was blinded by the Greek! (I've read the Odyssey and the Iliad in the original, so...running on inertia.)

justpeachy Jul 30, 2023

@Threadbane @blacklight nothing to be too embarrassed about! I had to search it up myself. I’d never heard of a building called the Pantheon, only the word referring to religions with many gods.

okanogen VerminEnemyFromWithin Jul 31, 2023

@justpeachy @Threadbane @blacklight
So where is the Malaproprion?

Threadbane Jul 31, 2023

@justpeachy @blacklight
The Parthenon is a temple to Athena Parthenos, the guardian goddess of Athens. Parthenos means virgin in Homeric Greek. I looked it up, but I actually knew that when I was about 17, when I was taking Homeric Greek.

Dan Ciruli Jul 31, 2023

@Threadbane @justpeachy @blacklight I'm sorry, this is the Internet. We don't admit we were wrong and apologize here.

(In all seriousness: the world would be a FAR better place if more people could do what you did here! Instant follow)

Jorge Stolfi Jul 30, 2023

@justpeachy @Threadbane @blacklight

And the Pantone is American.

Angry Centrist Jul 30, 2023

@Threadbane @blacklight The Parthenon (Athens) vs the Pantheon (Rome.) While the facade of the Pantheon does exhibit the usual Roman thievery of Greek visual elements, its engineering and construction is distinctly Roman with a domed concrete(!) roof the ancient Greeks lacked the technology to produce.

Firehorseart Lives!Oct 5, 2023

@dkbgeek @Threadbane @blacklight

I'm glad I visited the Parthenon while I had the chance. That was a large part of what I wanted to see on my one and only visit to Greece.

Having read about the temples on the Acropolis in my art history classes, it was good to see the site in real life. That also helped me understand why the Greeks want the Elgin Marbles back. The site has a museum ready to display them in.

Threadbane Oct 5, 2023

@srfirehorseart @dkbgeek @blacklight
I lived in Italy for a year when I was 13 and saw all the "standard" Roman ruins in Rome, lived in Naples and saw Pompeii and Herculaneum, but never made it to Greece. I'm envious! Would have liked to see the Acropolis.

Firehorseart Lives!Oct 5, 2023

@Threadbane @dkbgeek @blacklight

Italy was next on my list to visit, partly to see classical Roman art and architecture (also in my art history studies).

Mainly, I was hoping to visit the Venice Biennale for contemporary art, but I was also hoping to see some museums and galleries.

You're still one country ahead of me and I have never lived in continental Europe, only the UK. Starting to wish I had now, but Brexit and COVID has put the brakes on that.

Orión Montoya Jul 31, 2023

@Threadbane are you confusing the Pantheon with the Parthenon?

Threadbane Jul 31, 2023

@mdcclv
Absolutely!

edgeoforever 🍎Jul 30, 2023

@blacklight V-Ger? Maybe watch Star Trek the Motion Picture again. Scary!

Bartek Jasicki Jul 30, 2023

@blacklight While I agree that Voyager is a marvelous example of code, I disagree that we lost something over time. 😉

1. In those days there are also created a bloated or buggy software, but today we don't remember it. Using the comparison to masonry, because it collapsed. 😀

2. It is hard to compare two completely different types of software. If desktop software would be created in the same way as airspace one, it would be a few thousand times more expensive and slower to deliver.

🇪🇺 Paul Schoonhoven 🍋🍉Jul 30, 2023

@thindil indeed... Over 50 years only the good stuff survives. It doesn't matter if that is software or a building. The bad versions are buried and forgotten.
@blacklight

Bartek Jasicki Jul 30, 2023

@vosje62 Time is the best medicine... but also the best Q&A department. 😁

NKT Jul 30, 2023

@vosje62 @thindil @blacklight Partly true. We would remember either of the Voyager craft even if they'd died due to a bug after 25 years. As long as the other/both haven't, at least, we will remember both, for a long time.

Fabio Manganiello Jul 30, 2023

@thindil good point - thanks for pointing out the potential "survivorship bias" there.

But even when we take into account the "fallen buildings" from that era, I still feel like some of that craft has been lost.

When I look at some of that old code (I'd say up to mid 1980s), I see mastering of bitmasks, hammering data into registers and memory blocks, craft of memory allocation and usage (some of the coders from those years even wrote their own little garbage collectors before Java and friends came around, or were masters in optimizing stack usage/unwinding). In short, doing great things with the little resources that were available to them.

Even if most of those "buildings" have "fallen", and we admire the few that are still functioning at the edge of our solar system, it doesn't mean that the techniques of the time weren't authentic engineering wonders that we've lost in an age where we take so many abstractions for granted.

Bartek Jasicki Jul 30, 2023

@blacklight True, when I'm looking at a code, especially which coming from HIS, almost always it is a bit magical code. 😉 There are reasons for that:

1. Programmers have a lot of time for tinkering with the code.
2. Many programmers there are very experienced.
3. When creating that kind of software, there is an access to really powerful tools, often even unknown for others.

I think, young people of today will someday do something better, as we improved in other fields over time. Eh, 500 limit.

Lorq Von Ray Jul 30, 2023

@blacklight "If the young but knew..." My first computer had a whopping 4K (yes, 4 Kilobytes) of main memory. Today I'm forced (occasionally) to deal with a circle (jerk) of Agile coders who are powerless when the IDE on their MacBook Pros won't launch, with absolutely no idea where to start in fixing the problem; the file servers, the datastores, their Macbook, the network, or a hundred other things they know nothing about. Oh, and trying to teach them about IPv6 is basically pointless.

@blacklight computational constraints are a source of wonderful and clever creativity. Our current abundance is sometimes a trap.

Elias Mårtenson Jul 30, 2023

@blacklight some time in the 90's I sent an email to the Voyager team asking some technical questions about the systems. I got a detailed answer back answering in detail my questions.

I wish I still had that email. Would be interesting to look up who it actually was that sent it. The team wasn't big even then as far as I know.

johnfredcee Jul 30, 2023

@blacklight 69k? Not even enough for the windows boot manager?

doublejay Jul 30, 2023

@blacklight i have a to do list app that is 50 meg and charges an annual subscription.

Big George Jul 30, 2023

@blacklight forward thinking... missing in today's software engineers

🇨🇦 D'Arcy Norman Jul 30, 2023

@george @blacklight back then, software engineers were actually engineers, as opposed to the IDE google-jockeys we have now. Software cobblers?

Allen but one of the good ones Jul 30, 2023

@dnorman @george @blacklight
I guess it's time to bring out The Story of Mel again:
https://web.archive.org/web/20170309215507/http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/mel.html

The story of Mel

Andreas, DJ3EI, he/him Jul 30, 2023

Software dev team A has an expert chiefly responsible for its main program. That genius routinely codes amazing optimizations incomprehensible to anyone else.

Team B distributes responsibility and authorship. Readability is consciously priorized over performance. Coding standards are obeyed.

Which team can implement a brilliant new idea?

Has fewer bugs?

Fixes them faster?

Will exist in 5 years?

Would I prefer to work in?

B. B. B. B. B.

@uastronomer @dnorman @george @blacklight

Hubert Figuière Jul 30, 2023

@dnorman @george @blacklight wait that they all use copilot...