Kibun
bigMouthCommie@kibun
that won't get the land back for the displaced indigenous people
@GrrlScientist
@bigMouthCommie @GrrlScientist not necessarily no, but it would reduce the rate of land thats being taken away right now and it could free up land that could then be given back (not that i am confident that would happen though)
@bigMouthCommie @GrrlScientist okay, nice to hear your opinion. If you go beyond opinion and want to know the facts: look at the scientific evidence and you will see that animal agriculture is one of the major drivers (if not the biggest driver) for deforestation and indigenous displacement world wide. Im not saying going vegan will fix all these problems, but we wont be able to fix these problems without shifting to a more plant based diet either.
@kibun @GrrlScientist
animal agriculture may be the biggest driver of deforestation, but there is no reason to believe going vegan would change that.
animal agriculture may be the biggest driver of deforestation, but there is no reason to believe going vegan would change that.
@bigMouthCommie @GrrlScientist yes. if the demand goes down, the supply will follow and if you have fewer animals, theres fewer incentive to expand pastures and farmland. Not really a hard logical train to follow.
@kibun @GrrlScientist
>if the demand goes down, the supply will follow and if you have fewer animals
that's not causal, but lets assume that it happens the way you describe: what is your plan to decrease demand?
>if the demand goes down, the supply will follow and if you have fewer animals
that's not causal, but lets assume that it happens the way you describe: what is your plan to decrease demand?
@bigMouthCommie @GrrlScientist it is causal, reducing demand and thus supply is happening in some countries because of higher awareness for the negative implications of animal agri. It can be accelerated by cutting subsidies to animal agri, implementing a co2 tax for animal agri, cutting the vat for plant based products. Germany has had a 10% reduction of farmed pigs as well as reduced import in the last year alone, with similar trend in most other EU countries
@kibun @GrrlScientist
> it is causal
no, it's not. producers are agents with free will and they get to choose their actions. the only "cause" of their actions is in choosing whether they will produce.
> it is causal
no, it's not. producers are agents with free will and they get to choose their actions. the only "cause" of their actions is in choosing whether they will produce.
@bigMouthCommie @GrrlScientist they have free will but if they earn less money through animal agriculture they will not invest more money into the same. Either they cant afford it or they dont want to afford it if growing plants is more profitable. They cant sell animal products if nobody wants to buy them, and stores wont buy them if the customers wont buy them.
@kibun @GrrlScientist
>They cant sell animal products if nobody wants to buy them, and stores wont buy them if the customers wont buy them.
no one bought iphones in 2004.
>They cant sell animal products if nobody wants to buy them, and stores wont buy them if the customers wont buy them.
no one bought iphones in 2004.
@bigMouthCommie @GrrlScientist sure, so your argument is to uninvent animal derived products as a food? Thats basically what veganism is doing
@kibun @GrrlScientist
no. my argument is that industry creates its own demand, so attacking demand is the wrong tactic to destroy an industry.
no. my argument is that industry creates its own demand, so attacking demand is the wrong tactic to destroy an industry.
@bigMouthCommie @GrrlScientist for inventions that is a valid argument, its not for meat based products. If consumers dont consume animal products. They wont be produced anymore
@kibun @GrrlScientist
> If consumers dont consume animal products. They wont be produced anymore
animal products were produced before anyone ever bought anything. there is no reason to believe it will ever stop.
> If consumers dont consume animal products. They wont be produced anymore
animal products were produced before anyone ever bought anything. there is no reason to believe it will ever stop.
@kibun @GrrlScientist
>for inventions that is a valid argument, its not for meat based products
this would mean that animal product-purveyors would have no reason to advertise, but surely you know that they do, and it works.
>for inventions that is a valid argument, its not for meat based products
this would mean that animal product-purveyors would have no reason to advertise, but surely you know that they do, and it works.
@bigMouthCommie @GrrlScientist but somehow me advertising a vegan diet does not work in your mond? Veganism has been on the rise in the western world for years and meat consumption in decline, which clearly shows that argument is invalid
@kibun @GrrlScientist
>but somehow me advertising a vegan diet does not work in your mond?
i never suggested that. but i will say just as there are people who don't eat big macs, there will be people who don't go vegan.
>but somehow me advertising a vegan diet does not work in your mond?
i never suggested that. but i will say just as there are people who don't eat big macs, there will be people who don't go vegan.
@bigMouthCommie @GrrlScientist perfect is the enemy of good, not everyone will immediately go vegan but that percentage of people is getting smaller and smaller. Besides, its no use pretending that we have to destroy 100% of animal agriculture for it to yield benefits.
@kibun @GrrlScientist
it's still not clear to me that any of the forest would be saved no matter how many people are vegan: the land that's been taken will likely never be returned, and the forest that can still be pillaged has value whether people are vegan or not.
it's still not clear to me that any of the forest would be saved no matter how many people are vegan: the land that's been taken will likely never be returned, and the forest that can still be pillaged has value whether people are vegan or not.
@kibun @GrrlScientist
> It can be accelerated by cutting subsidies to animal agri, implementing a co2 tax for animal agri, cutting the vat for plant based products. Germany has had a 10% reduction of farmed pigs as well as reduced import in the last year alone, with similar trend in most other EU countries
it's really interesting to me that you said people need to go vegan, but then your plans to decrease demand were actually all tactics to decrease production. if your actual plans work, then there is no need for anyone to go vegan, i think.
> It can be accelerated by cutting subsidies to animal agri, implementing a co2 tax for animal agri, cutting the vat for plant based products. Germany has had a 10% reduction of farmed pigs as well as reduced import in the last year alone, with similar trend in most other EU countries
it's really interesting to me that you said people need to go vegan, but then your plans to decrease demand were actually all tactics to decrease production. if your actual plans work, then there is no need for anyone to go vegan, i think.
@bigMouthCommie @GrrlScientist most of the things i mentioned regulate price, which affects the demand before it does affect the production. And in either way the transformation is easier the more people were already on a plant based diet to begin with
@kibun @GrrlScientist everything you mentioned were costs that would need to be paid by the producers.
@bigMouthCommie @GrrlScientist if you increase the cost to produce a product, either the profit margin will be reduced (which is already tiny for animal products) or the price will be passed on ti the consumers, who will then generally buy less of it if they can replace it
@kibun @GrrlScientist so you see that your solution is actually supply side and requires no extra effort on teh part of people who don't control the industry.
@bigMouthCommie @GrrlScientist the accelerating factors dont require action on the consumers, but these measures wont become reality unless we already have a large population of people living on a plant based diet
@kibun @GrrlScientist
>these measures wont become reality unless we already have a large population of people living on a plant based diet
don't we already have **both** a large population of people who live on a plant based diet **and** some action in the EU (i'm thinking of the netherlands, but surely there are others)?
it seems to me that you're wrong about what can bring those measures to fruition.
>these measures wont become reality unless we already have a large population of people living on a plant based diet
don't we already have **both** a large population of people who live on a plant based diet **and** some action in the EU (i'm thinking of the netherlands, but surely there are others)?
it seems to me that you're wrong about what can bring those measures to fruition.
@bigMouthCommie @GrrlScientist they come hand in hand, the more people who are aware of the issues regarding animal agriculture, the more vegans you have and the more support you have in politics for this measure, which is why advocating for people to go vegan is exactly the best thing next to voting that you and I as non-policymakers can do.
@kibun @GrrlScientist
i don't want to tell people what to eat. most of my work has to do with community organizing, and that kind of work means you need to meet people where they are and help them make connections with those around them. a lot of people connect over food, and telling them what to eat is alienating. if i refused to eat what they eat, i would be alienated. i think the work of organizing the working class can benefit the environment, but it should be the primary focus, rather than begging those in power to look favorably upon us.
i don't want to tell people what to eat. most of my work has to do with community organizing, and that kind of work means you need to meet people where they are and help them make connections with those around them. a lot of people connect over food, and telling them what to eat is alienating. if i refused to eat what they eat, i would be alienated. i think the work of organizing the working class can benefit the environment, but it should be the primary focus, rather than begging those in power to look favorably upon us.