Tom Dullemond
Advisory Briefs ๐ ๏ธThe purpose of homes should be to house people. The purpose of healthcare should be healing. The purpose of farming should be feeding. Under capitalism, the purpose of all is profit.
EyalL@advisorybriefs how do you make the purpose of enough people be health care or farming, while also allowing them to fulfill that purpose effectively?
@EyalL The same way people made insulin, kibbutzes, co-ops, Linux, or Mastodon -- for the good of the collective.
@advisorybriefs do you know what happened to the kibbutzes?
Every attempt to do this on a large scale ended in catastrophe
@EyalL Weird take from a guy on a FOSS platform. Also, the kibbutzes thrived for nearly a century -- about twice as long as the state of Israel has existed & longer than nearly every for-profit entity ever.
They biggest problem they faced was anti-communist persecution during the late cold war, because of course they did.
Even that didn't kill the kibbutz movement, with ~120k people living in them today.
For more information, see: https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/history-and-overview-of-the-kibbutz-movement
@advisorybriefs that's not true. There is maybe one or two kibutzes that are still communal like the beginning
They turned towards capitalism as soon as the enthusiastic first generation was replaced with a new generation that didn't care for those ideals
I'm all for foss and maybe even abolition of copyrights. Does that mean I should support an idea that very rarely was implemented successfully and almost always resulted in starvation and evil dictatorships?
David MankinsPay them, of course. The choice is not between the ends of a binary pole, but finding a place in the middle that works well for everyone.
Lstn2urmama ๐จ๐ฆ@advisorybriefs ...the livestock is and has been in great danger know for a long time... many places closing doors and animals transported days away...which also means many more deaths...as well the cost to build stock and transport never mind the massive production centers...the climate issue regarding is so crazy when humans put out more gases than animals...and spreading chemical residues in the skies because of travel... STAY HOME !
LonesomeDove@Lstn2urmama @advisorybriefs on top of that- $300+M in fed fines from prior & current DOJ investigations.
Price fixing by Tyson, JBS, Smithfield, Perdue, Natl Beef..
Fines but no prison sentences?? & not the first time..
I shared a news report re WA state now defunct ranching family Easterday and the son who is now in prison for fraud. .. vs Tyson.. ~$$$$ in fraud re fake cattle sales. Tyson!
@usanchor @advisorybriefs ...sorry unable to catch what is happening since do not know of these cases , so I take it one has to have a whole reifcase to know what's happening there..just know of what I see in Canada in small bits...
Q1-2021, Pres Biden press conf- details the fed fines (from Trump DOJ & present).
and the WA state fiasco- Easterday 'heir' bet the ranch.. and lost big!!! now in prison & the fam business is probably DEAD
https://www.spokesman.com/stories/2022/dec/19/cody-easterday-is-now-in-prison-why-did-he-file-a-/
Cody Easterday is now in prison. Why did he file a new suit against Tyson Foods?
More than two months after he was sentenced in the massive "ghost cattle" fraud scheme, Cody Easterday is now in a federal prison. On Friday, Easterday reported to the Federal Correctional Institute Lompoc in California to begin his 11-year sentence. He will be on probation for three years after that.
@usanchor @advisorybriefs ...interesting how something this big has been so quiet or just in the belt of cattle world...
tekisui@advisorybriefs about half of the food we produce is throw away eventually
Max Legroom โ๏ธ@advisorybriefs Lmao why did we replace Dr Manhattan with Bobby Hill?? ๐คฃ
@maxmm77 can you prove they're not one and the same?
A. Rivera"The purpose of health care should be healing."
That resonates and timely given the book I am currently reading: "The People's Hospital." That line just hit close to home.
Aviva Gary
woolie@advisorybriefs did anything interesting happen when the farms were collectivized?
@wooliex @advisorybriefs Food production was underwhelming, and peasants resisted. The government responded by seizing all the food and letting the peasants starve.
Collective farming has produced starvation every single time starting with the pilgrims. If you prevent food being produced for profit, food will not be produced at all.
Now if we can fully automate production of necessities, then you can have your socialism, and also eat.
@mike805 @wooliex @advisorybriefs fully automate ,,, who owns this utopia of zero workers?
And what jobs do the folk in Midwest then have- oiling the machines?
@usanchor @wooliex @advisorybriefs There needs to be a publicly owned and fully automated system that produces the necessities without running up any debt. Then you can have a UBI and people can work if they want to work. Most people probably will.
But your boss no longer has the power of life and death (or at least homelessness and fear) to hold over you.
@wooliex Lots of businesses across many sectors have been turned into worker-own co-ops. Many of them have become wildly successful.
https://socapglobal.com/2016/09/10-inspiring-employee-owned-businesses-you-should-know/
@advisorybriefs not what I asked
xs4me2And that that is not sustainable should be clear by now. Wake upโฆ
๐๐๐๐๐@advisorybriefs If not for profit, what is the incentive for a farmer to produce more than is needed to feed ones family?
@smokku @advisorybriefs they were lead to believe that growing more at lower value (for export) would offset the risk.
Now those bankrupt farmers work FOR BigAg, who bought up their properties, cents on the dollar.
Same now going on in the livestock sector.
@usanchor Disagree.
They were bankrupt by unfair competition from BigAg, backed by regulations created by government. (lobbied by BigAg, exactly for the purpose of destroying and buying small for the cheaps)
Anyway, this is orthogonal to my question.
@smokku who pressed those govt regs etc? BigAg.. along with John Deere etc .. who wanted to โeasily sellโ $$$$$$ equipment to these farmers.
Add to that crop insurance / risk- all to export soy to Asia ..
I believe we are saying similar points btw.
@usanchor We kind of do. ๐
โ
Rising the bar by government regulations makes the production profitable only for big farmers. Thus they want to go big, over-expand and go bust.
Again - this is in a "for profit" model.
My original question is, whether there is some other model, that would incentivize people to grow more than they need (and feed others).
@smokku not a simple question for certain. I remember corn harvest going all night- big $$$ machines with GPS & a driver, perhaps awake or not, in the cab. Is that really โlivingโ or even โfarmingโ?
Wyoming farmers cannot grow sufficient hay for cattle (crossover internal feed or sale) to make it viable. Tulare Lake has come back to life btw.
How to reset? CA Central Valley may be a void - unpredictable rain, bad & good.
@smokku The same incentive that runs Mastodon, for the good of the collective.
Also, markets have existed before capitalism, and will likely exist after capitalism. Capitalism โ markets.
Here's a good primer from Richard Wolff, economist from Harvard, Yale, and Standford: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swpR41pRdMA
Ask Prof Wolff: Can Market Socialism and Marxism Coexist?
@advisorybriefs I am running a Mastodon server. I've also been working my arse off on the farm.
Believe me, it is not comparable effort.
I will not work on the farm anymore even for good money and WAY NOT for free to feed someone else.
Maarten Pelgrim@advisorybriefs I'm afraid it's not even profit. It's shareholder value...
OtownKim@advisorybriefs Michael Moore was right about Capitalism!!!
Stargeezer Smith@advisorybriefs
My only correction is "unconstrained capitalism."
Government oversight of capitalism to keep it functioning in the public's interest is being destroyed by the GOP.
@advisorybriefs the rich keep getting richer,โฆ
Avi@advisorybriefs and the purpose of profit is control
@advisorybriefs letโs say that thereโs a โgood formโ of capitalism
We havenโt seen that in decades- really, not since the Walmart heirs spit on Sam Waltonโs mantra Made in the USA.
Small ranchers & farmers are selling off or quitting - BIG $$$ have bought up WY, MT, ID. Theyโve bought off Dept Interior & BLM for personal profit- this has been the case for decades.
Perc dot org .. 40 years of planning & plotting
No grasp or embrace of sustainable practices - all is for exploitation
Giles Goat@advisorybriefs It's all in the name "Capitalism" .. "Capital" == "money". Capitalism for years sold a concept that turned out completely false that "should find the better situation for the buyer" cause "competition" cause "optimal lower prices". In the end in fact created "cartels" or "monopolies" and "absurdly low unsustainable prices/production methods/complete destruction/consumption of resources". It's really like a virus that eats until nothing is left. Ergo is NOT "self regulating".
ysb33r@advisorybriefs what you are referring to is the form of capitalism that maximizes profit to shareholders above everything else.
There is also conscience capitalism in which it is understood that it is not about profit, but rather about profitable solutions which benefit both the people and the planet.
A lot of people dish capitalism as they have only seen/know the bad side/form of it. It