zencatJames Cameron calls for regulations for tourist subs after Titan disaster
No need for regulations, just set a price floor please. Only billionaires allowed.
This. Let them eat shit.
i_ben_fineHave the government sell permits for $1M.
I wonder about the people who would work on the subs, who are basically not millionaires. Would regulation, insurance and such help them have some protection and compensation?
FuglyDuckTo be clear, it wasn’t a “tourist sub”… so maybe the first regulation should be defining exactly what that is,
jkmooneyThe CEO was very careful to skirt applicable regulatory laws. He even called his passengers "crew members". In the aviation world, I have some experience harmonizing multiple regulatory authorities. Because of "international waters", there will need to be some agreement and harmonizing of regulations. There's already SOLAS so, I think it can be done.
Absolutely.
The issue is that the regulations that do exist allow them to skirt it by not offering a hard, and broad, definitions of ‘tourist subs’.
A “crew member” would be some kind of employee.
Employees don’t pay a company a quarter of a million dollars to do “work” for eight hours. You don’t pay to work, you get payed to work.
Just because you call someone a crew member doesn’t necessarily mean that would hold up in a court of law.
average650I think if they were alive to sue and be sued… He’d be fucked.
Technically I believe they were classified as employees that “donated” to the company. Nice workaround Stockton! Let’s see how that holds up in court with the obvious gross negligence.
The regulations come from the countries that the company is founded in. OceanGate is (was) as US based company.
In the aviation world, an experimental aircraft may not be used for "compensation or hire". The only exception is that a kitplane manufacturer is allowed to give demo flights.
Is that true in every country on the planet? Because I doubt it.
United States Federal Aviation Administration, I believe EASA is similar.
So, no, then.
Those are the two I'm most familiar with in my profession, at least as far as civilian authorities are concerned. Can't really say "no" and, I'm pretty sure neither can you. On the other hand, feel free to prove me wrong with a counter example. :)
Difficult to prove a negative, but I would be surprised if there aren’t at least a few third world countries with lax aviation rules.
The point, though, is that strong regulations in the countries that are inclined to regulate these things aren’t actually going to stop persistent rich idiots from doing stupid things. The Titan was against regulations in every country that bothers to regulate submersibles, that’s why it only operated in international waters.
@zencat I have Thalassophobia, so for me there's no better regulation than that.
Its international waters. What regulatory body is Cameron proposing has jurisdiction to enforce any regulations?
Something Burger 🍔Tickets for the tours aren’t sold from international waters, and countries can still sue someone for breaking their laws outside their territories if they want.
Except if X country has restrictions, rich assholes will then register the sub in Y country.
The Titan sub was registered out of Bermuda. The carry boat was registered in Canada, it normally docked in the US.
That's how rich asshole work, they register the boat where ever the fuck they want to.
livusFrom the article:
Cameron told the event that the shocking loss of the Titan might force international agencies to craft regulations for passenger vessels.
Presumably he means agencies like the IMO (International Maritime Organization), which has written international laws like the [International Convention For The Safety Of Life At Sea.](
Dude. Do you think that “international waters/airspace” means you can just anything? Consider airlines. What happens if you suddenly drop trou and shat in the aisles? You will be restrained and arrested the moment you land. Similarly, people on ships are bound by the laws their ship is flagged with. In addition, insurance companies won’t insure your vessel if you decide to not obey any laws. That alone can destroy your business venture.
Dude. Do you think that “international waters/airspace” means you can just anything? Consider airlines. What happens if you suddenly drop trou and shat in the aisles? You will be restrained and arrested the moment you land.
Cameron is talking about binding the owners not the passengers with his proposed regulations. If I own the airplane I can totally shit on the floor and there is no law to stop me.
Similarly, people on ships are bound by the laws their ship is flagged with.
Exactly, future-risky-sub-owner could simply seek out a country that doesn’t adhere to any safety regulations. I imagine there would be many small nations which could have their “Private submarine regulation” laws bought for a relatively small sum of money.
In addition, insurance companies won’t insure your vessel if you decide to not obey any laws. That alone can destroy your business venture.
The insurance angle is a good one, but that would just mean they would have to go uninsured (or self insured) and risk losing clients that have a problem with it.
mercanoIt is going to be tricky to regulate, but the expedition ship does come back to shore to resupply. They don’t leave the sub adrift on the high seas, they bring it back with them, and I imagine it’s easier to do maintenance on it on dry land, or at least in the protected waters of port.
I honestly don’t care much about this topic at all. If people want to go down and get imploded, they should be free to do so. It has zero effect on the rest of the world.
Are there that many tourist submarines in the world? Would this even make a difference?
I mean ok
But also has an air of “won’t someone please think of the billionaires”
Like, if some dipshit builds rockets and is offering trips to space for a million dollars and you tried to go to space through this clown and idk, not NASA… that’s kinda on you.
But yeah, sure. Preventable deaths, etc.
There for sure should be something to regulate the commercial aspect of it, I don’t give a goddamn if some billionaires want to build their own sub, go exploring and die themselves.
But you shouldn’t be able to charge someone or pay someone else to go with/for you unless certain minimum safety standards are met. And you know that’s what these rich asshole will do if given the opportunity
Who says this couldn’t eventually become a mass produced product though? I 100% believe it should be regulated, even if I could care less for some of the people that were on board. It still should be maintained so people don’t get sucked into unregulated BS, regardless of who gets on board.
SilverstringsI take the radical perspective that people dying horrible pointless deaths is a bad thing and should be prevented. Yes, even stupid rich people.
So brave
Noooo, don’t do it pleeeease.
I am calling for less. No billionaire should be stopped from going on an unregulated submarine.
MagnorLet them enjoy the deregulated world they created.
Can we just have one law about them not taking their kids, maybe?
Move to lemm.eeNah. Let the rich morons off themselves.
I am calling for even fewer regulations. Negative regulations.
Sterile_TechniqueNegative regulations
force billionaires on board sketchy-ass subs and send them a few miles down?
I like it.
Musk and Zuck next please.
James Cameron doesn’t do what James Cameron does for James Cameron. James Cameron does what James Cameron does because James Cameron is James Cameron!
They are operating in international waters. Who would oversee these regulations?
The port from which they launch and the country where the company is registered.
If it’s all done incognito and they fuck up then too bad.
There are plenty of mutually agreed upon international regulations that ships, aircraft, etc. all abide by. It’s not rocket science (well there’s that too).
I work in aviation regulatory law but, a friend of mine does work in this arena. I did ask him if my analog existed in the nautical world and he was able to walk me through how he'd managed to avoid any regulatory oversight. There's SOLAS but, other than that, it's a gap that apparently needs to be closed.
I’m not a lawyer, but it seems like the subs only operate in international waters. The ships carrying these deep sea submersibles dock at ports, but the subs themselves are cargo until you get out into the middle of nowhere.
Interesting. What has ja rule say to this?
At this rate, I can see a billionaire stepping on a lego and saying legos need to be regulated.
Stick to making crappy movies you out of touch dinosaur.
He’s extremely knowledgeable about submersibles. He helped design and build the Deepsea Challenger, which he then took to the bottom of Challenger Deep, the deepest known location on the planet. He’s one of two people to have done that.
He has a ton more experience on top of that. I’ll leave it up to you to go learn about it if you can be bothered to do so.
And he’s still an out of touch dinosaur. He can take his sub and shove it.
This is true. HOWEVER, he’s only opening his mouth to push for legislation on this because he doesn’t want any more of his asshole billionaire friends to die. This isn’t out of altruism for the average Joe… because let’s face it, how many folks do you know who can afford a trip like that?
James Cameron is a leading expert in undersea exploration. Touch grass you out of touch redditor
ROFL. Love James Cameron much? Stop idolizing celebrities ffs. I think you’re the one that needs to touch grass instead of caring about what some boomer thinks.
I don't know, I'm an aircraft structural engineer and, based upon what technical commentary I did hear him make, it kinda sounds to me like he knows what he's talking about.
The only disaster was that they didn’t manage to squeeze a few more billionaires on board.
TwoGemsThey only care because some boring billionaires died.
I for one welcome more of these “catastrophic failures” if it means more billionaires will lose their lives. Worthless sociopathic assholes
Don’t waste tax money on this. If some rich idiots want to unalive themselves in a can to see some garbage at the bottom of the ocean - let them.
EdibleFriend…please leave ‘unalive’ on places like tik tok.