Mastodawn

Marcus Reynolds Jul 17, 2023

It has taken us a long time to realise that seeking to surpass others might be pathological, and trying to enjoy and cooperate with others healthy, rather than the other way around.

Philip Elliot Slater (15 May 1927 – 20 June 2013) The Pursuit of Loneliness: American Culture at the Breaking Point Beacon Press / Penguin Books, 1970

Jo Jul 17, 2023

@Jedigirl actually, it is normal to be in competition all the time, we have since the dawn of time over food, etc. stressed 24/7? we have less stress now than we did when we had to fight for our food. work for most of our waking hours of the day? Until modern times, people worked most of their day to grow crops, build fences, etc. What's not normal is the lack of these things which we enjoy in modern times.

Clovis

Jul 17, 2023

@Justanotherjo why do you assume access to food was based on competition and not collaboration ?

Especially since, at least for hunting, our ancestors leaved some pictural description of their hunting methods showing clearly that is was a matter of working together.

@Jedigirl

Jo Jul 17, 2023

@clovis @Jedigirl even if people collaborate on it, different groups competed for the same resources. This is why we have such a huge history of wars in the human species.

Clovis

Jul 18, 2023

@Justanotherjo
You don't need competition when there is enough ressource for a given group of humans on a given space.
I don't think war is motivated only by ressources access, especially since war does not significally eliminate concurent humans in long term but usually only change their political leadership/system.
Maybe be war is caused by ressource competition too, but it's far more easy to exchange than to fight. We have a lot more experience in exchange and market than into war. We can count our wars, we don't count every exchanges between humans groups.

That's a form of collaboration, again

Even from a genetic and evolutionary pov, we are more made for collaboration than to fight: our very own capacity is our ability to speak and exchange ideas the way we can do it. Humans haven't evolved to fight (no claws, no leather, no bone shield), we have evolved to speak and share. We are made to live in groups of various sizes, and the mere fact we build a network like the one we are talking on tend to prove that idea.

@Jedigirl

@Justanotherjo @Jedigirl i'm pretty there is absolutely nothing other than misconception and modern days bias that back the fact that people were more stressed out in ancient times. We tend to think (and were raised to think) that modernity brought only benefit, good and betterment for the human condition. But assuming that can blind us to see how things could be different.

@Justanotherjo @Jedigirl if we take only one example: the number of misconceptions and urban legends about medieval europe there is is outstanding. The average joe would think that people died at 35-40 years old, that they were all dirty, illiterate and constantly sick or working themselves to death. As far as we know in the current state of knowledge about this period, almost every single point is wrong.

ChrisAshtear Jul 18, 2023

@Justanotherjo @Jedigirl yeah thats not true at all. There are times when agricultural societies worked way harder(harvest time), but other than that there was way less to do.

Especially if it was a hunter gatherer society and food was plentiful? There was barely any work.

Virtue signal 💉💉💉🇺🇸 🇺🇦Jul 17, 2023

be in competition all the time
(capitalism)

be at war all the time
(fascism)

https://ourworldindata.org/working-hours#are-we-working-more-than-ever

Ian Davis Jul 17, 2023

@Jedigirl
"In today’s hustle and bustle world, it’s easy to assume that we are all, by and large, working more than ever. But is that really the case?

...average working hours declined dramatically for workers in early-industrialized economies over the last 150 years. In 1870, workers in most of these countries worked more than 3,000 hours annually — equivalent to a grueling 60–70 hours each week for 50 weeks per year"

Working Hours

How much time do people across the world spend working? How have working hours changed over time, and what do these changes matter for people’s lives? Explore data and research on working hours.

Our World in Data

Ian Davis Jul 17, 2023

@Jedigirl
...That said, it all seems significantly more stressy of late.

#ReplyGuy apologies. I find.that site calming in the face of modernity hence the toot.

The Frog Jul 17, 2023

to support it, just think about what is the main motivation for people to amass wealth... Yep, being rich means you don't stress about having enough food and don't need to work, do what you really want to do and live without stress.

I suppose that's the difference between capitalism and socialisms : capitalists want a life free of stress for themselves at the expense of others while socialists want a life free of stress for everyone.

Wolfgang Feist Jul 17, 2023

True.

Has to be said from time to time.

Please also note:

Work could be self-realization. It is for most artists, for basket makers I know, for me as a scientist, for people doing straw-insulation (I know), for my friend, the cobbler, for our self delivering eco-farmer...

Most of what we need could be realized in such a way, nowadays.

It's mainly not whether you work 6 or 8 h. It's what you do and how it's been done, because this is an important and long part of our life.

@WolfgangFeist @Jedigirl I think the difference between "work" as defined as "a task one does as a craft" and "work" as defined as "a task someone has to do in exchange of money if they want to fulfill their needs of food, shelter, social status etc"

I don't think we talk about the same things. The two can interlace. But when we talk about work under capitalism it is the later. When I'm tending to my garden, I'm effectively working too. But that's not what it's about.

Wolfgang Feist Jul 18, 2023

@Julianoe @Jedigirl

True. Almost:
food, shelter, ....

social status??? etc(what?)

See, thats 'the problem', that stabilises the system.

And it's not just that phrase "capitalism"; an old classification. Conditions changed a lot since 1867!

Nowadays we are able to organize almost all work the way "a task one does as a craft". And if we really think about it, even the "rest" won't be that stressful. I do not fear to do my (rest-)part of cleaning the streets.

@WolfgangFeist @Jedigirl social status ex: if it's not acceptable for me to wear the clothes I want at work as long as they do their function, I consider that expense being social status.
etc: communications (some advocate for access to internet being a human right), water, transport, health care, ETC.

@WolfgangFeist I have no doubt that we could « organize almost all work the way "a task one does as a craft" » that would require to change our needs and expectations in this society.
I don't think the current level of consumption is possible this way. It requires cheap labor, cheap materials, cheap transport. That means people being badly paid and work being an alienation for a lot of people.

@WolfgangFeist you can't mass produce sneakers sold 50$ across the world without having people assembling sneakers all day long 6 days a week. And I don't consider this "a task done as a craft".
This system has most of its roots in the origin of capitalism.

Wolfgang Feist Jul 18, 2023

@Julianoe

I just dont agree

These "sneakers" can easily be produced a way, that they last 24 months rather than 6 and be repaired (task done as a craft) to last another 24 months. (That would also be an enviromentally suitable solution), and it can be done NOW.
The other extreme: The sneakers can be produced almost fully automatized. Only human control needed;which can be well paying & a task done "like a craft"(Thats a future option, but not so far future. Still, they must last longer) ->2

@WolfgangFeist that's why some people argue, and I agree with them, that capitalism is a belief system: you believe you have faith it could be better, or in the fact that it could automatized. Yet cheap labor (even sometimes slave labor and/or children labor) are what lies in the bases of this system. Nothing indicates, other than belief from people in first world countries, that it will get better

@WolfgangFeist yet capitalism always finds new ways to exploit the earth and people for growth and profit. Because it's its essence. And alienating work is a necessary condition for that to continue.

Other relationships to work is possible. Outside of capitalism. Capitalism has proven so well that it can't be reformed that it ended up destroying living conditions favorable to humanity on Earth before we could manage to do it.

doublejay Jul 17, 2023

funny..... we talk of the iron age, the enlightenment, the industrial age, and the information age.......but no one every really mentions that millennium where we did nothing but chase profit.