Mastodawn

MathesonStep Jul 11, 2023

Brodie Robertson

I implore any of the #Fedora #Linux contributors out there that might see this, please do not back the new telemetry proposal. I know telemetry can be incredibly valuable for improving the product offered by Fedora and I'm sure some great improvements can be made with it but I see this as your Amazon Lens moment.

If #FedoraLinux goes ahead with this it doesn't matter that the user can opt-out, it doesn't matter that the data is generic, it doesn't matter that it's anonymized, for now until the end of time Fedora will be called a spyware distro. You will hurt community trust in the project far more than anything you will gain from improving the software and I really don't want to see that happen.

🌸 lily 🏳️‍⚧️

θΔ ⋐ & ∞Jul 10, 2023

@BrodieOnLinux all telemetry should be opt in - if i see a telemetry request that has no selected i change it to yes and click okay

@tauon @BrodieOnLinux if neither Yes nor No is selected and it's a mandatory choice?

@BrodieOnLinux
I think that this can be easily solved by making it an opt-in tool instead of an opt-out.

wallmenis Jul 10, 2023

@BrodieOnLinux
I was planning on moving to fedora kde or kinoite after arch... Now I am having second thoughts. I am between staying on arch, debian-testing and nixos.

Ryan Kage Jul 10, 2023

@wallmenis @BrodieOnLinux was on fedora gnome since 37. So not long, but with all the red hat drama and now this? I jumped back to arch linux (trying gnome this time). So far red hat is leaving flatpaks alone so I’m still using those, but who knows. A bit of a rant, but ya.

wallmenis Jul 10, 2023

@ryankage @BrodieOnLinux
Man if flatpak gets the boot, we're screwed! It is so widespread, it will be a pain to be forked and people start to transition...

Ryan Kage Jul 10, 2023

@wallmenis @BrodieOnLinux a little dramatic, I actually prefer flatpak, but if I have to I’ll just go back to arch repo/aur.

Vint Prox Jul 10, 2023

Opt-out telemetry for distro is such a horrid shortcut. I hope they really know what they're doing and don't push this proposal any further.

Imagine being someone who wishes to install #Fedora in a near future, and then the worst happens: it's burned to the bottom with hateful reviews, everyone jumps ship to Ubuntu and Manjaro, interest of developers maintaining interoperability falls... That would be not a complete darkness, but still sucks.

@BrodieOnLinux The proposal is a proposal. Already they are mellowing it down like here: https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/opt-in-opt-out-a-breakout-topic-for-the-f40-change-request-on-privacy-preserving-telemetry-for-fedora-workstation/85395/153

BTW what a terrible place to discuss it. I posted something then read this n had to delete as it was outdated.

Opt-in / Opt-Out? A breakout topic for the F40 Change Request on Privacy-preserving telemetry for Fedora Workstation

Hi all, I apologize that I haven’t been able to read all the feedback in this breakout topic yet. I intend to read every comment that has been posted here, but haven’t been able to yet due to the high number of comments. That said, it’s obvious there is a very large number of you who are not happy with the opt-out consent toggle. I wasn’t expecting this to be the most controversial part of the proposal since it is one click to turn off the toggle, but, well, collecting feedback is what the cha...

Fedora Discussion

evasb 🇺🇦Jul 10, 2023

@BrodieOnLinux What would you think if they asked about data being transmitted every time?

Sometimes a window will open asking for you if you will allow the data to be transmitted, explaining about the importance to have data to make the system better.

You will have the options to consent, consent always, don't consent or never consent.

Amikke Jul 10, 2023

@evasb @BrodieOnLinux then people will call it not only spyware but also annoying and compare it to windows constantly bothering you.

Ren Jul 10, 2023

@BrodieOnLinux
They just need to make it opt-in, imo. The data has no personal info, its all under 1 name, etc. They did everything right to make it privacy respecting! But having it opt-out is gonna ruin all that effort because Linux users just jump on the bandwagon "TELEMETRY BAD!"

Nevil Jul 10, 2023

@BrodieOnLinux i don’t feel the same way at all! People need to chill down. As soon as they hear « telemetry » they go in panic attack. If you really fear telemetry, you need to stop … browsing the web (with google analytics pooring all the data they can and criss cross them with all they can (gmail, youtube, ads etc). The way Fedora intends to collect usage is clean (if they really implement it the way they said (with azafea etc.)). I have no problem with it…

http Jul 10, 2023

@Nevil @BrodieOnLinux It's not panic. Just because *you* are fine with normalizing the destruction of privacy, doesn't mean everyone else is, or even that it's a neutral thing.

Defaults matter.

Nevil Jul 10, 2023

@http @BrodieOnLinux have you only checked the system proposal ? There is NO information about the user!! It’s all anonymized !!! So don’t talk about loss of privacy !! And the data is OWN by the community !! KDE used something similar with their user feedback system : https://github.com/KDE/kuserfeedback. Did you cry wolf ?They don’t want to stole your data !! They want some help to build a better workstation OS!!

GitHub - KDE/kuserfeedback: Framework for collecting user feedback for apps via telemetry and surveys

Framework for collecting user feedback for apps via telemetry and surveys - GitHub - KDE/kuserfeedback: Framework for collecting user feedback for apps via telemetry and surveys

GitHub

[email protected] has moved Jul 10, 2023

The fact that we debate on such thing is sad by itself.
This is how close relations with big corpos end. Always.
And you'll see - they will do this. One way or the other. Because Big Brother has ordered them to.

js Jul 10, 2023

@BrodieOnLinux @karolherbst Fedora contributor here, I'm strongly against this and also mentioned that there.

But I don't think the "will forever be called spyware" will be true. Ubuntu sent *all your fucking search queries* to *Amazon*. Without consent. And no easy way to turn it off. Not even *that* stopped people from using Ubuntu and barely anyone calls it spyware these days.

Mighty Murder Mittens Jul 10, 2023

@BrodieOnLinux Idunno, Ubuntu seems to have recovered from the "spy distro" stigma that it suffered for doing the same thing, but Ubuntu has a ton of other stupid things they're doing.

Joel Hunt Jul 10, 2023

@BrodieOnLinux honest question, because I'm genuinely curious, how is this different from the telemetry that say pop_OS! ships with? Or do they have the reputation of being spyware? I've only been getting into Linux in the past year and a half.

Personally I see no issue if it's very clearly shown in the install set up. Maybe with the default being no.

Melpomene Jul 11, 2023

One of the deciding factors in my adopting Linux was that Windows and MacOS both contain incredible amounts of telemetry. Seeing Fedora consider adding the same is disappointing to say the least.

Ursidinoj/The Bjornsdottirs Jul 11, 2023

@BrodieOnLinux Debian has telemetry but as far as I know it's fully opt-in.

If Fedora does this opt-out, that's not good.