katCapitalism is the paywall of life
LemminoWell-regulated capitalism on the other hand has resulted in an explosion of technological advancement like no other era in human history.
The key is regulation. Not too little, but not too much either. Some things, like minimum wage, are clearly under regulated. Other things, like mandating USB-C, are honestly better left to the free market (and I fucking love USB-C.)
ReclipseDon’t say this here. Everyone hates capitalism here.
I think it’s important to have people with diverse opinions, with exception ofcourse.
Some people’s opinions are pretty fucked lol
RetoffelnosterEven those people are probably misguided, uneducated or scared.
Probably, but they could also just be evil. Some people actually want things which are not compatible with what many would consider fair.
I used to try to give people the benefit of the doubt
But lately I’ve been questioning if I should lol
алсааас [she/her]the systems is still inherently flawed and based on exploiting nature and people. Trying to make a system that is based on “infinite growth” adhere to the reality of our finite world is like telling a warrior society that they should start being peaceful
Capitalism is no more based on “infinite growth” than human psychology is based on “infinite pleasure”.
There is a lot of space for discussion on the desired reach of free market and regulation, and it is actually happening in politics. Too bad in public space it sometimes looks like the only options are extreme capitalism or anticapitalism.
By the way, highly regulated authoritarian states have even more success to regulate breathing than capitalism, so it is weird to focus the hate on one but not the other.
On the other hand there is something to be said about those who feel like they are left out by the system which does not self correct in their favor. Hearing their voices, which might justifiably sound extreme, is important.
I am pro healthy capitalism too (including strong welfare state) but don't agree that capitalism deserves any credit for technological advancement. Science does. And there shouldn't be any comparison between the totalitarian states and free-capitalism states of the past. We can't give credit to a thief for prosperity because he is not a murderer.
Science doesn’t exist in a vacuum. With capitalism, you’re directly incentivized to invest in R&D because you can come out with a better product that people will want, thus advancing science. Everything from the lightbulb to HVAC machines started as capitalistic endeavors as opposed to purely academic ones.
It starts out that way, but regulation always fails and things get worse. The scientific method is young, most inventions were stolen, and the standard expectation for level of exploitation is approaching dystopian levels. But at least capitalism will save us!
harkEconomic systems are fundamentally about resource allocation. Capitalism is not the only system that allocates resources to science nor is it the optimal one. You’re making a lot of assumptions on what makes a “better” product. Under capitalism, “better” is quantified as whatever brings in the highest return on investment, which doesn’t align with and is often diametrically opposed to the interests of the end users of that technology.
rodhlannThis is especially relevant for things like lightbulbs, cell phones, cars, etc, which are constructed in such a way that they will only last a certain amount of time, because the other alternative would be a product that never failed, and therefore only needed to be purchased once. True technological advancement would be the perfection of technology, but capitalism would never allow that because it wouldn't be profitable in the long term
As others said, science also needs governance, direction. Scientists have internal motivation and sense of what to do, but they often disagree and choices for resource allocation need to be made. Exteme competetiveness in some scientific institutions can cause bad culture (like favoring hype over achievement) but authoritharian systems also often breed bad science (like what soviets disregarded quantum physics at first). Speaking as a scientist myself.
Paradoxically regulation is needed to ensure free and fair competetion in science (and in other things)
I used to think this was true too, but then I realized that the fundamental problem with capitalism is that it's incompatible with democracy and regulation. That's why literally every capitalist country on earth (including the wealthy ones) has a problem with regulatory capture, corruption, and buyout and supplanting of the actual government.
Capitalism encourages the greediest, trickiest, and most selfish people to rise to the top and stay there through a mixture of brute force and media manipulation. In essence, it's not much different than totalitarian authoritarian governments, it's just more subtle.
Look at Fox news and right wing media bubbles for instance, or the Democratic party which opposes ranked choice voting whenever it can and constantly says one thing and does another. Humans are too greedy, selfish, and short-sighted to live and exist for long under a system like capitalism. How do we know this? Look around, climate change and pollution's already serious and it's not changing anytime soon.
We're probably already fucked, and we just don't know how much we are just yet.
The issue is that greed is an aspect of human nature. You’ll never be able to eliminate it. Any system that relies on greed, corruption, and selfishness not existing, will ultimately fail, because that system relies on humans pretending that certain emotions don’t exist.
Capitalism is deeply flawed, but it’s stability as a system is not predicated on humans trying (and inevitably failing) to delete fundamental human emotions.
I would even say it is one of the key components of everything we consider life. On the other hand, other components include selflesness, compassion and sacrifice. Denying and of these features leads to disfunctional systems
Capitalism builds on competetion but favors behavior which eliminates competitors. This inner tension of capitalism makes it easily degrade into an authoritharian system. But it does not make it the same as one. Regulation is needed to maintain fair competetion which sounds paradoxical but is also a tension in the capitalism as such.
Democracies struggle with capitalism but they struggle much more with planned state. Struggle is in the nature of free agents of democracy, so it does not have to suggest incompatibility.
Fine, so long as you ban campaign donations and most forms of lobbying.
Otherwise regulation goes to the highest bidder.
Tw: rape
You realize that, capitalism, if left EVER unrelated, will use power to endlessly underregulate itself and just gain more power?
This is like saying "firing a gun in my mouth doesn't kill me as long as I live". Sure, it's true I guess, but it's also so, so inherently wrong.
I've been trying to do what you're doing now for so long. But in reality, you have to take a look at what capitalism really is: it's a form of power designation that designates that power with the powerful, or pedantically, with capital, but it's the same thing, for all intents and purposes. And THAT is an unbalanced system from the get-go, right off the bat.
It's also like saying "slave systems are SUPER productive!". Like, sure, they are. But they're also incredibly destructive and prevent a lot of other things from happening.
It's also like saying "a lot of sex happens when you rape somebody". Sure, yes, I guess that's technically a true statement. But.... It's an unwanted power imbalance that hasn't accounted for what would have happened to the victim OR the rapist had they not raped somebody. The rapist could have developed into a normal human being and even fell in love or had a lot of consensual casual sex, and the victim could have stayed not raped and been perfectly happy progressing through their life not raped.
It's just such a half baked, biscuit brained thought and statement. You literally cannot compare our tech right now to the past because technology typically progresses exponentially ANYWAY. You cannot know what would have happened or what would happen if not capitalism, because we've had nothing BUT it for basically all of human history. Every time we even want to try something else, capitalism LITERALLY attacks it with everything it's got and refuses to ever let up until there's nothing but ashes, and a lot of those places are capitalist. Native Americans? IMPERIALISM BECAUSE OF CAPITALISM.
Greed kills selflessness every time in every experiment as long as it exists and is given the smallest chance.
Capitalism is cancer; it just mindless destroys everything in it's path, along with itself, only existing and leeching as long as its host stays alive.
You gotta read some more books and history.
Capitalism, well-regulated, has worked - it’s not some dangerous idea that will result in our self-destruction. IMO history shows we are much more likely to see communism self-destruct (into authoritarianism/totalitarianism.)
I agree that the generational wealth aspect is the worst aspect of capitalism and I wish that could be reformed.
A note - technology does not progress exponentially. In fact, it rarely has. We have had dark ages lasting between hundreds and tens of thousands of years. The progress of technology is in no way guaranteed, your society needs to encourage continued R&D into technology, which capital as a concept does especially well.
I anticipate that at some point in the future we can abandon capitalism entirely, as we will have technologically advanced to the point where we don’t need it anymore.
pavnilschandaI’m not sure. I only have rudimentary knowledge when it comes to the arts (hello Western school of fine art education), but I’m pretty sure socialist/communist countries were very creative and innovative when it comes to art, or at least animation. In fact, I think the Soviet Union has been incorporating animation with modern art before the US did.
What do you think @[email protected]? Were there any artworks that thrived under the Soviet Union? Or maybe just innovations in general?
As someone who grew up with soviet animation I'd say it was pretty high quality but also extremely limited in quantity and diversity. Also it was not infrequently associted with dissidents.
DessertStorms