Mastodawn

What's with the schism between lemmygrad and beehaw?

https://lemmy.world/post/133305

What's with the schism between lemmygrad and beehaw? - Lemmy.world

I am exploring Lemmy right now and what I see is very worrying to me, but I also don’t understand wth is going on with some instances here. I don’t know if it’s smart to post this, but here we go. I am partial to Marxist and anarchist ideology, but lemmygrad looks completely unhinged to me. Is it a parody? Some content is fine and some of it is insane. On the other hand, beehaw looked super inviting from the outside and I even applied to join them. Then, I looked closer and that instance’s moderation looks totalitarian and rigid in the other way. (I understand why they blocked lemmygrad though…) I’m seeing this impact other communities in different ways and there’s some kind of witch hunt happening on both sides… I want to interact with people that can respect each-other and that can hold open-minded discussions about any topics without devolving into some tribal war.

lp0101 Jun 14, 2023

Lemmygrad is full of unhinged tankies. I just automatically assume anyone posting there is a child, either physically or mentally.

Beehaw have their own rules, and that's fine. While not my cup of tea, I won't tell them how to run their instance. I respect those rules when I post to their communities. I particularly enjoy their technology and gaming communities.

Other instances are pretty alright. The vibe on lemmy.world is pretty great, which is why it's my home instance.

Chraccoon Jun 14, 2023

I definitely agree on respecting how other instances moderate themselves and I'm happy I can choose what I interact with. It's just so new and it's hard to find out what the vibes are. I hope I chose well with this one.

KermitLeFrog Jun 14, 2023

This comment is basically just reaffirming my choice to make world my home instance too, although I am probably gonna explore some of Beehaw's communities especially if they have more engagement. Any you'd recommend?

Lemdee Jun 14, 2023

Honestly all the beehaw communities are quite nice, so it depends on your interests but you can't go wrong with any of them imo.

NebLem Jun 15, 2023

Outside of agreeing to the rules (modlogs are open to see), knowing who they block, and having some trust in the instance admin, joining any instance is fine and you can follow almost any instance's communities.

Felemuso Jun 14, 2023

I'm also new here so I cannot really answer your question. But are you saying Beehaw leans far right? Because I thought they wanted to foster a very welcoming and supportive environment (even disabling downvotes) and I thought they even blocked some instances which are too right for them?

Chraccoon Jun 14, 2023

nonono, It's not that. I haven't lurked there for very long, but it seemed that they were trigger-happy on bans from what I gathered. I don't have examples at the moment and the modlog feature doesn't seem to work well..

Felemuso Jun 14, 2023

Ah got it, ok sorry I misunderstood you. But yes, this sounds believable. As I understand they have a very clear vision what is wrong with social media and believe that only very strict moderation can fix these problems. If this is right or wrong I cannot really say...

Chraccoon Jun 14, 2023

It definitely is an interesting and there might be some merit to it. I'm just worried. Let's say I post in lemmygrad for any reason and then comment something unrelated and neutral on a beehaw post. Will I be silenced because of that first instance's bad reputation? Maybe I'm thinking too much.

Felemuso Jun 14, 2023

Good question. But I guess only the beehaw admins know the answer to that. But from my understanding so far they would only silence you if you actively spread negativity - but I might be wrong.

JohannesOliver Jun 14, 2023

It doesn’t seem like they’ve been doing things like that at all.

DarraignTheSane Jun 14, 2023

FWIW, I don't think there are any 'far right', or really any right-leaning Lemmy servers at this point. None that I've seen, at least.

Felemuso Jun 14, 2023

that's good to hear 😉

DarraignTheSane Jun 14, 2023

Yeah, hopefully it stays that way, but with popularity it's likely we'll get all types. I suppose some asshole will come along and setup "christo.fascist.world" or something at some point.

Felemuso Jun 14, 2023

Yeah you're probably right. But the good thing is with lemmy the "community" can decide what is acceptable behaviour and what not. If the admin of an instance finds another instance abusive they can just defederate it. And if the users of this instance don't like that the other one got de-federated they can just switch. (or at least that's my basic understanding so far...)

DarraignTheSane Jun 14, 2023

True enough, but that doesn't stop people like that from having a place to congregate, and then nothing else is stopping them from creating logins on different servers and brigading other communities from there. There's no around that though with the Fediverse and Lemmy being designed how it is.

altair222 Jun 14, 2023

there is one. backchodi. Its a hindu nationalist (and hence islamaphobic, racist, casteist, queerphobic instance)

JohannesOliver Jun 14, 2023

You can find some in beehaw’s list of blocked instances.

gorkette Jun 14, 2023

I don't agree with the removal of being able to downvote. Both up and downvoting serves a purpose. Would you support a community that only allowed downvotes?

threefriend Jun 15, 2023

Beehaw doesn't lean far right at all. They blocked lemmygrad for being authoritarian (i.e. pro North Korea), not for being on the left.

From one of Beehaw's stickied posts: "We want to explicitly make a nice little corner of the internet where we can hide from racist, sexist, ableist, colonialist, homophobic, transphobic, and other forms of hateful speech."

Darren Jun 14, 2023

This is something that I've found really nice about the Fediverse. It seems like both instances don't really work for you; in that case, you can always find another that might fit your interests! Even if you have the ability to see the communities from each instance, you don't have to participate. Like another poster said, I've made lemmy.world my main instance because I enjoyed the rules and vibe stated there.

DarraignTheSane Jun 14, 2023

lemmygrad looks completely unhinged to me
...
[Beehaw's] moderation looks totalitarian and rigid

Yes. They're not on the opposite sides politically, but are on opposite ends of the spectrum for tolerating wack-a-do nonsense.

Chraccoon Jun 14, 2023

Yeah, not opposite politically. You described it better.

altair222 Jun 14, 2023

and how exactly is beehaw totalitarian? ive been very explicit in my language while using beehaw since it was a tiny miny server. is it perfect? oh hell no ive got a lot to say but totalitarian?

Supermariofan67 Jun 14, 2023

One indication is that they defederate several hundred instances, far more than any other Lemmy instance does, and some for no apparent reason and with nothing at all objectionable.

𞋴𝛂𝛋𝛆 Jun 14, 2023

Funny. I haven't even noticed as I am not subscribed to anywhere this is taking place. The only thing I've seen is Gaywallet's fork essay and a few crazy comments about the Lemmy dev's I'm an open communist info.

I'm no political buff and don't want to become one. I think most ideologies are oversimplified nonsense that does not encompass the needs of the true majority in any instance. They all require compromises that encompass parts of other opposing theories. However, a person committed to a community centric ideology sounds like the perfect fit as the developer of a federated social media platform.

shanghaibebop Jun 14, 2023

I can share the perspective of why I joined beehaw instead of the other services.

I used to be on the side of free-speech maximalists, but after seeing communities crumble because of toxicity driving out people, I also came to see the same problems with social media that the beehaw folks see.

On anon/pseudo anon places, the social structure to correct anti-social behavior does not exist like in real life. So to create an environment that’s tolerable to the majority of people, you have to isolate and punish the bad actors.

I’m past the age where i want to be spending time on things and places where people are hateful and mean all the time.

Kushan Jun 14, 2023

Freedom of speech is never freedom of consequence. And if that consequence is that nobody wants to listen to you, well that's on you.

hyperhopper Jun 14, 2023

Freedom of speech is by definition freedom from consequence for speech.

"Yeah you can criticize glorious leader, you have free speech. You'll just spend the rest of your life unemployable and die/in a gulag"

Nobody is implying that a lack of freedom of speech means they put a gag on your face. A lack of freedom of speech means harsh consequences for speech.

jjagaimo Jun 14, 2023

Freedom of speech is from consequences from the government. That means you cannot be prosecuted for insulting politicians for example. But you can certainly be sued in civil court for the same thing.

hyperhopper Jun 14, 2023

You are 100% incorrect and are confusing the first amendment of the united states with the concept of freedom of speech.

Why is the government special? Are you implying powerful corporations can't deprive people of rights or oppress people? That is very incorrect and there is a mountain of evidence for this. Are you implying that communities can't or haven't shunned people and ruined their lives for saying reasonable or true things?

rambaroo Jun 15, 2023

Your original claim that "Freedom of speech is by definition freedom from consequence for speech" is simply impossible to implement without limiting someone else's freedom of speech, as well as their right to ownership over private property.

There's no such thing as "freedom from consequences" for anything you do, including speech.

hyperhopper Jun 15, 2023

If you're going to make wild claims please substantiate them.

How does person A saying things result in person B being unable to say things or own private property?

shanghaibebop Jun 15, 2023

Consequence of insulting the business that employs you is that you’ll get fired. To limit the consequences here is to restrict the property rights of the business to hire and fire the individuals they hire.

More realistic scenario, if you’re an insufferable person spewing nonsense all day, people in your social circle (and those near you physically) will distance themselves from you. That’s the natural consequence of anti-social behavior.

There is no speech without consequence. To have speech without consequence is to expect cause without effect.

Samuel Proulx Jun 14, 2023

So we at rblind.com blocked lemmygrad pretty much right away, for the reasons stated above. But I'm starting to wonder if the future of Lemmy instances might not be organized around topics. I'm not sure that, if Lemmy takes off, moderating a "general interest" style instance is sustainable. I'm also not sure everyone centralizing onto one or two general instances is a good idea. Once we get out of alpha, the intent is for us to be an instance focused on posts and topics of interest to the blind community. We disabled community creation for that reason; I don't want someone signing up with us and creating the FunnyAnimalPictures community,, because as a blind person, I just don't want to be their admin, not because that content is bad in any way. Parcially sighted folks who want that content can federate with whatever instance has it, and I can trust those people to moderate and admin that community. Federation seems to be as useful for better distributing administration and moderation workloads as anything else. My real worry is that beehaw is too general and open. From the description, I don't really understand what it's for, or who should be there. At least I know the purpose of lemmygrad, and what kind of people I might find on it, making the "block" decision super easy.

NebLem Jun 15, 2023

I'm so excited for the possibilities of the accessible custom interfaces and improvements to the platform your instance's users will likely create. I totally agree that we'll likely have more topical instances as things stabilize, there will be lots of alt accounts, and those local feeds will be fun!

EnglishMobster Jun 15, 2023

The way you describe it is how things were intended to be used, I think.

Basically - find or make a niche instance. That niche instance has communities relevant to it, things that kind of person may enjoy. The niche instance federates with other niche instances, and people are able to reach across and create the unique set of communities that define them.

A great example is https://lemmy.blahaj.zone, which is a LGBTQ-focused instance that has communities relevant to LGBTQ folks, and rules intended to be LGBTQ friendly.

Lemmygrad is another example, although it's an example most disagree with. They have their own culture, their own rules, and their own communities that are relevant to tankies. I'm sure at some point there will be a Neo-Nazi instance as well; it's just how it is.

But largely... people are used to Reddit. And Twitter. And whatever other big monoliths. So they want to use things in the same way, and that's why we have these instances full of general topics.

And it works fine, for what it is. It's not how things were intended to work, but both can exist in harmony. If anything, it's a step up from Reddit where you had PCM and Conspiracy and GenZedong all on the same website.

Here, for the most part, things are separated. The general instances are... general, and if you want specific answers for something that you're interested in you can follow communities on one of those niche instances. Alternatively - places that don't to be associated with another can block that instance.

I think long-term we'll see a mix of both. We see this already on Mastodon; lots of people on big servers and lots of people on niche servers. I think Lemmy and Kbin both lend themselves more naturally to the niche server model, but at the same time places like lemmy.world and kbin.social and beehaw.org have such large userbases that they're all going to have staying power unless their admin team does something to drive people away.

Blåhaj Lemmy - Choose Your Interface

NABDad Jun 14, 2023

Just replying to recommend the Lemmy.world instance. Seems like a nice place to me.

Obviously, you interact with communities from other instances, but it's like having a home in a friendly neighborhood. You can visit elsewhere, but you've got a friendly base to come back to.

williamallenbro Jun 15, 2023

This is a great analogy. There are parts of my city I love visiting, but I'm glad to get back to my neighborhood at the end of the day.

lynny Jun 14, 2023

That's the beauty of the fediverse, a true diversity of opinion.

Reddit and other sites are wary about fringe communities and ideologies, and will ban them if they feel threatened. Just look at /r/ChapoTrapHouse or /r/The_Donald. Regardless of what you think of those groups of people, they have a right to spread their views.

No matter how much you wish to stop the spread of harmful information, it will spread as long as there are people who want it to.

peanuts4life Jun 14, 2023

Defederation might be a good thing, and I don't think we should assign a taboo to it.

What I believe, is it establishes a direct chain of responsibility. Instance owners are responsible for what thier users say and do on. This incentivises moderation, but unlike other systems, defederated instances don't cease to exist. In fact, they could thrive, and even mutually contribute to other instances. A new insurance could even preemptively defederate from instances they know won't gell well, allowing communities to build without facing threats of harassment.

I believe, it gives the opportunity for Lemmy users to create a diverse collection congruent communities. Not everything can, or should, be consolidated into one great house.