Dendan Setia (Nins)

I think it's worth introducing into global English a word that we Malayans (i use this specifically, though now it's become Malaysian) picked up from Indian colonial subjects: hartal (as per wiki: 'A hartal is a mass protest, often involving a total shutdown of workplaces, offices, shops, and courts of law, and a form of civil disobedience similar to a labour strike. In addition to being a general strike, it involves the voluntary closure of schools and places of business. It is a mode of appealing to the sympathies of a government to reverse an unpopular or unacceptable decision.'). It's a useful distinction because the current conversations are beholden to the framing of industrial labour action (and thus limiting the thinking that results in users also only seen as labour actors) when it's as much an expression of a populace about governance. #RedditMigration #Labor #Labour #Strike #Hartal

via @Chronotope

https://indieweb.social/@Chronotope/110541689102345045

Wiki: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hartal#:~:text=A%20hartal%20is%20a%20mass,schools%20and%20places%20of%20business.

Aram Zucker-Scharff (@[email protected])

It's fascinating that reddit users have gone on strike over their labor conditions yet no one, including them, has framed it that way. Posters' Union rising here.

Indieweb.Social
Jun 14, 2023 at 9:59amWeb
Show threadabhijithJun 14, 2023
@cendawanita @Chronotope @akhilan ദേ മലയാളികളുടെ പ്രിയ ഹര്‍ത്താല്‍ മലേശ്യയിലുമെത്തി.
Show threadഅഖിലൻJun 14, 2023

@abhijith

ഞാൻ പോർത്തുഗീസ്/പേർഷ്യനാണെന്നാ കരുതിയതു്.

Show threadabhijithJun 14, 2023
@akhilan ഗുജറാത്തി വാക്കാണ്. മലേശ്യയിലേക്ക് നമ്മള്‍ കൊണ്ടുപോയതാകും.
Show threadtestingJun 14, 2023

@cendawanita @Chronotope
i think that your own assessment is more correct than the wikipedia article: a hartal is not just a strike (or general strike)

given the term's roots in colonial india, it is more appropriate to define hartal as a type of strike where people with practically no political recognition and representation do claim their very rights under an oppressive regime which outlaws any kind of protest

the wikipedia article could use some serious editing. e.g.

In addition to being a general strike, it involves the voluntary closure of schools and places of business.there have been quite a few general strikes in the past involving the voluntary closure of schools and places of business, e.g. the finnish general strike of 1905 which grew out of resistance against russian colonial oppression - even civil servants voluntarily joined the strike, or, from another point of view: the hartal #redditmigration #labor #labour #strike #hartal #colonialism #subaltern

Show threadDendan Setia (Nins)Jun 14, 2023

@testing
Yes, i definitely thought about the Finnish one, so it's not like plain anglo 'strike' hasn't been used in the general sense, but i was rly struck by the current discourse, this round with reddit, where ppl seemed wilfully constraining the meaning of who can strike and for what. Just saying it's labour action, because understandably recent examples in angloverse are about labour issues, to the point people are twisting themselves into ascribing users of a pseudo-public commons into worker roles felt unnecessarily silly.

And thanks for clarifying more! I can't find in me to explain (because i use it in an everyday sense and who knows whether that's appropriate) and the wiki one was the closest I could find quickly, lol
@Chronotope

Show threadtestingJun 14, 2023

@cendawanita @Chronotope

Just saying it's labour action, because understandably recent examples in angloverse are about labour issues, to the point people are twisting themselves into ascribing users of a pseudo-public commons into worker roles felt unnecessarily silly. i wholeheartedly agree ❤️ - redditors are not salaried workers going on strike

thank you for bringing hartal back to my mind > nowadays, i tend to use this word mostly in the sense of strike in general > but first time i read it in some hindi text book, the very hartal described was a gandhi-inspired one in colonial india in bombay province shortly before ww2 #redditmigration #labor #labour #strike #hartal #colonialism #subaltern

Show threadDendan Setia (Nins)Jun 14, 2023
@testing
No problem! 😂 In my case it was learning about our Malayan Hartal of 1947, and definitely inspired by what took place in India
Show threadAram Zucker-ScharffJun 15, 2023
@testing @cendawanita I think it is correct though to frame what reddit users do on reddit *as labor*. So framing this as a labor strike makes sense to me.
Show threadDendan Setia (Nins)Jun 15, 2023

@Chronotope
Seeing it as only labour is why I think it's limiting - yes, it's labour in one sense but commenters didn't leave comments necessarily for compensation (moderators definitely should), they're just existing. In this, it's more useful to use colonial societies and societies in general as models. Seeing it as only labour may seem like it makes sense because their activities looks like they generate some kind of value to the owner of site but what I think makes better sense is to apply the lens of an extractive economic arrangement where the owner of a space is applying levies for ppl just existing in the space. There is taxation at work (of course, opportunity costs) but no ability to influence the decision.

Of course, previous to applying a labour frame to what redditors are doing, this would be understood very well in capitalism as a form of consumer activism. I'm applying a political model because locus of grievance isn't compensation but quality of life.
@testing

Show threadtestingJun 15, 2023
@cendawanita @Chronotope
i am supportive of your views, albeit from a durkheimian/maussian perspective:

redditors put in a lot of work - as a gift

see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcel_Mauss#Theoretical_views

it was foreseeable that the interests of redditors and reddit's owners must collide because of fundamentally economies at work
Marcel Mauss - Wikipedia

Show threadDendan Setia (Nins)Jun 15, 2023
@testing
Ah yes, the gift economy! That's what's missing from my framing
@Chronotope
Show threadAram Zucker-ScharffJun 15, 2023
@cendawanita @testing I don't think a gift economy works here at all. Reddit's actions and the users' reactions are intrinsically tied to the revenue garnered from ads, ads are only possible because they harvest attention, that attention is only given because of the labor of reddit users. Reddit clearly doesn't see that relationship as interdependence. However users frame their work in their own mind, it is clear from this conflict that it is labor that is being exploited by Reddit.
Show threadtestingJun 15, 2023
@Chronotope @cendawanita
where is the reward of redditors then?
Show threadAram Zucker-ScharffJun 15, 2023
@testing @cendawanita The fact that the economy fails to reward them beyond the perception of social credit and status just means their exploitation is worse, not that they aren't doing labor. The fact that the users' actions emulates a strike makes this even clearer. People who conceive of themselves as working under a gift economy don't strike. This is not the relationship of people under the gift economy: https://fortune.com/2023/06/14/reddit-blackout-extended-ceo-leaked-memo-blowup-will-pass-moderators/
Reddit’s CEO just infuriated his striking moderators by saying ‘this one will pass,’ the way ‘all blowups’ do. They want to keep the site dark indefinitely

The action follows CEO’s reported comments that “like all blowups on Reddit, this one will pass as well.”

Fortune
Show threadDendan Setia (Nins)Jun 15, 2023
@testing
@Chronotope
Personally that's why I see there's value in thinking about it as an extractive economy arrangement. The ad revenue isn't 1:1 to platform activity but again i can see why not when applying to a real world community like a neighbourhood. Why are certain communities are expensive ad spend markets despite low productivity? Even in your comment i think you're hitting on the exploitation. In a colonial model, EVERYONE is a resource to be extracted and exploited.
Show threadDendan Setia (Nins)Jun 15, 2023
@testing
And any privately run domain is literally a colony
@Chronotope
Show threadAram Zucker-ScharffJun 15, 2023
@cendawanita @testing Well, I think that "productivity" is the wrong measure to understand what makes an ad market expensive, especially when we understand that ads are interested in capturing attention. But yes, you've hit on the right point, we exist in a colonial model of the internet. Ads are the leading edge of colonizing the internet for capitalism because the nature of current digital ads transforms attention into labor to be exploited. Let me give you a much more obvious example: ... 1/2
Show threadAram Zucker-ScharffJun 15, 2023
@cendawanita @testing Why does the google search page get worse? There's an easy answer: the harder the search page is to navigate. Navigating the page becomes labor, that labor renders greater accuracy and value to what you finally choose which is then transformed into more effective ad targeting by better understanding your preference. Ads render navigating a resource into labor.
Show threadDendan Setia (Nins)Jun 15, 2023
@Chronotope
And this is where I'm gently pointing out how much you've been twisting yourself in knots just to fit the labour framing alone when it's as much a matter of politics
@testing
Show threadAram Zucker-ScharffJun 15, 2023
@cendawanita @testing This isn't a twist. I've worked in ad tech for over a decade now trying to build ethical systems. That is how the system works. It requires you to do more labor to render that labor into better data to make more money. That's not just politics. How could it be just politics on reddit when the central disagreement is *around compensation for access*?
Show threadtestingJun 15, 2023
@cendawanita
this conversation is getting less and less pleasant > i do enjoy great discussions where people do not arrive at the the same conclusions, but appreciate each other's different approaches and insights

i do have the impression that @Chronotope just wants to refute instead of contribute, and hell yeah, this is what redditors do, they contribute their knowledge, they share their interests or sorrows etc ...

all of it is political, among other dimensions, and people who reduce multiple dimensions to one dimension such as capitalist economy may be successful at building a model, but it will be a model which is not readily applicable to real life conditions

that said, i'm out
Show threadAram Zucker-ScharffJun 15, 2023
@testing @cendawanita My apologies that is not my intention. I have a hard time seeing your point when reddit is a for-profit platform. I know my biggest hole in knowledge is about understanding the resistence-in-action by colonized peoples & underlying philosophy. If you would be willing to, I would appreciate further reading here to try and understand your position better, since I think it comes out of that philosophy? Books you recommend or something more in depth than a wikipedia article?
Show threadDendan Setia (Nins)Jun 15, 2023
@Chronotope
I have a horrible habit of never remembering anything but, i wonder if this link might help a tiny bit? https://www.malaysianbar.org.my/article/news/legal-and-general-news/general-news/first-all-race-political-action-and-the-people-s-constitution it's the history of the 1947 Malayan Hartal - the article was a bit of historical excavation so it might be a helpful ref for you too
@testing
First all–race political action and the People’s Constitution - The Malaysian Bar

Show threadAram Zucker-ScharffJun 15, 2023
@cendawanita @testing thank you, I'll give it a read. Let me know if there's anything else I can read that would be particularly illustrative!
Show threadtestingJun 15, 2023
@Chronotope @cendawanita
okay, you seem to assume that redditors are entitled to some financial benefit ...

this is not how economies work
Show threadAram Zucker-ScharffJun 15, 2023
@testing @cendawanita We all live in a capitalist world. Redditors, like anyone who does labor, deserve to be fairly compensated for their work. We only have been trained to expect that they don't deserve compensation by social pressure, but if you do labor on behalf of a rent collector who profits off that labor like Reddit then the laborers deserve their share. That's how economies *should* work.
Show threadtestingJun 15, 2023
@Chronotope @cendawanita
if i invite you in a maker space, providing tools etc - this is my gift to you - why would you want me to pay you for things which you prioritize?
Show threadAram Zucker-ScharffJun 15, 2023
@testing @cendawanita A makerspace is not a rent collector. That is a gift economy space. If the makerspace demanded that I fill out a form so it could sell my data to marketers so it could make extra profits that went only to the owner that wouldn't be a gift economy anymore. Reddit is not a gift economy space.
Show threadDendan Setia (Nins)Jun 15, 2023

@Chronotope
I do see your argument - but that's why at the top I'm saying it's a limiting frame. This is NOT just an issue of economic compensation; ppl are expressing a collection of grievances about the quality of engagement and relationships they have experienced in a space that has many features of a public commons. That the owner of the commons wants to extract value from the participants is an economic issue but fundamentally rooted in how little they're able to influence decision-making.

My initial post is coming from this point of view because i also see people are inhibiting themselves BECAUSE in the west labour discourse predominates but you've had little practice thinking about the politics of an occupied territory.
@testing

Show threadAram Zucker-ScharffJun 15, 2023
@cendawanita @testing Sure, I agree that it is not *just* a labor frame. I agree that thinking about reddit as a once open space now occupied or colonized by capitalists is a more useful construct for understanding the situation broadly. All I'm saying is it is a mistake to not see that what users do on reddit has been *rendered* as labor, even if that wasn't the original intent of the users.
Show threadDendan Setia (Nins)Jun 15, 2023
@Chronotope
I never not considered the labour part. That's the whole point of an extractive colonial economy. That's why I'm talking about hartals
@testing
Show threadGabriela Noriega 🏳️‍⚧️ 🇧🇷Jun 14, 2023

@cendawanita
@Chronotope

Pardon my ignorance but I always thought that general strikes meant no schools as teachers are workers too and without public transit many people cannot physically go to schools.

So, is the only difference between a general strike and a hartal that businesspeople join in the strike thus making it a cross-class thing or am I missing some key detail?

Show threadDendan Setia (Nins)Jun 14, 2023

@gabri
The main thing with hartals which i didn't communicate fully but came out in this other exchange (https://blahaj.zone/notes/9fz9jtv59s) is that it's less of a industrial action but outright political action, that's informed by the fact it was first done by colonial subjects who had no political rights as such to do this in the first place, so that's the cross-class part. Does that clarify? General strikes can be similar, but as in your example, the premise of protest is an injustice against labour rights (hence schools close because teachers aren't there). Hartals exist already in places the word isn't used, for example Greta Thunberg's school strikes. TLDR is the location of the grievance, which can be economic but fundamentally because lack of political representation in the first place.

My contention with the reddit blackouts is that it's more hartal than an economic strike (first hartals was protesting taxes etc that the colonial subjects had no influence to change in the first place)

@testing

@[email protected] @[email protected] i think that your own assessment is more correct than the wikipedia article: a hartal is not just a strike (or general strike) given the term's roots in colonial india, it is more appropriate to define hartal as a type of strike where people with practically no political recognition and representation do claim their very rights under an oppressive regime which outlaws any kind of protest the wikipedia article could use some serious editing. e.g. >In addition to being a general strike, it involves the voluntary closure of schools and places of business. there have been quite a few general strikes in the past involving the voluntary closure of schools and places of business, e.g. the finnish general strike of 1905 which grew out of resistance against russian colonial oppression - even civil servants voluntarily joined the strike, or, from another point of view: the hartal #redditmigration #labor #labour #strike #hartal #colonialism #subaltern

Blåhaj Zone
Show threadGabriela Noriega 🏳️‍⚧️ 🇧🇷Jun 14, 2023
@cendawanita
okay, now I got your point. thanks!