Lex Friedman

I am enjoying the Reddit shit show.

I am also so glad I don't work at Reddit (for a lot of reasons).

I also really don't know their move if mods keep up the protest. (A big "if," of course.) The current leadership will be unwilling to cave, I suspect.

I can see the idea of “We goofed" post, but if it's true that (for example) Apollo costs them $20M/year (which is bonkers if true, and I'd like to know the delta of serving those same users off their own infrastructure directly)...

Jun 12, 2023 at 6:57pmWeb
Show threadLex FriedmanJun 12, 2023
... but IF it's true, now what? We recant? We'll delay for three months? Six? We'll offer API access to any user willing to spend $1 a month? Really curious.
Show threadLex FriedmanJun 12, 2023

And yes, you could simply remove mods. But that seems fraught with risk (since the "new" mods could do the same thing, and you get a mass, revolt exodus...

I don't know. I'm glad their problems aren't my problems.

Show threadMartin Du4Jun 12, 2023
@lexfri This is a huge pyramid of horse manure badly managed. Advils are surely flying high at Reddit HQ.
Show threadSteven Shea 🇺🇦🎄Jun 12, 2023
@lexfri And it's not like there's a huge backbench of people wanting to spend hours a week moderating content for free if they wanted to "fire" the mods. And the cost of using paid moderators (like almost every other social network) would dwarf the cost of 3rd party app API usage
Show threadAlexander LJun 12, 2023
@lexfri Honestly, as much as this sucks for Apollo the bigger deal for the platform is the lost of most/all of the moderation tools and other bots that most reddits depend on that also used the API. Will be the wild west without them.
Show threadTodd Thomas Jun 12, 2023
@ConnertheCat @lexfri wait, the moderation tools are not first party?
Show threadLex FriedmanJun 12, 2023
@todd @ConnertheCat I know at least that the mod tools don't really work on mobile, so you need third-party apps for that.
Show threadCarlosJun 12, 2023
@lexfri @todd @ConnertheCat I believe the situation is that the mod tools don’t work in the official application but they do on the third-party apps.
Show threadAlexander LJun 12, 2023
@PKdeGallo @lexfri @todd In addition to that, a good number of reddits also roll their own custom bots for whatever uses they need. It's … going to be a bit of a garbage fire.
Show threadZiggy the Hamster ☎️ 4ZTHJun 13, 2023
@todd @ConnertheCat @lexfri the first party moderation tools are not as good as the third party moderation tools and Reddit historically has been happy to let the community write their own moderation tools because different subreddits deal with different kinds of things that need moderated.
Show threadDaniel SilvaJun 12, 2023
@lexfri I can’t shake the feeling they’re just going to triple down on this and not change anything.
Show threadLex FriedmanJun 12, 2023

@dnwrld if this ends in two days, yes.

If mods don't cave... *something*'s gotta give.

Show threadJohn InfanteJun 12, 2023

@lexfri Step zero: fire the CEO. He has to go, he can’t continue on if you’re revering course after he called out Apollo’s dev like that.

Step 1: Announce a freeze on implementing the paid API access.

Step 2: Show what API access actually costs on a per-call, per-user, and per-app basis.

Step 3: Announce the formation of a developer committee that will help bridge the gap between third-party app needs and Reddit’s business goals

Show threadLex FriedmanJun 12, 2023

@johninfante I don't hate it!

This would also require the Reddit board / management team deciding to postpone the IPO a bit, I'd think.

But agreed on Step 0, he has to resign. He'd "step down."

Then a freeze *with a minimum timeline* for Step 1.

Show threadJS_WordSmithJun 12, 2023
@johninfante this seems too easy and logical for it to work, but it is the perfect solution
Show threadPatrick ToomeyJun 12, 2023
@lexfri Ad-free Reddit premium is $6/month...so you presume it is less than that.
Show threadCraig GrannellJun 12, 2023

@lexfri The $20m is clearly bull, as noted when the dev called their bluff. And regardless, there are options, such as a not-crazy API charge, a year (vs 30 days) to implement the changes, serving ads into third-party clients, etc.

On caving, the threat was that Reddit would just kick out the admins and reopen the closed parts. I wouldn’t put that past the CEO, but that really would kill the site.

Show threadMarcus KrügerJun 12, 2023
@lexfri I don’t have a feel for the scope of the strike/boycott. How many admins are on strike? How many users feel the strike , i.e. they can’t read any posts, post questions, write posts?
Show threadLex FriedmanJun 12, 2023

@trustedsystem https://reddark.rewby.archivete.am

At this writing, 7700 of ~8000 subreddits are dark.

Reddark

An open source website to watch subreddits going dark

Show threadMarcus KrügerJun 12, 2023
@lexfri Does being dark mean they are read-only?
Show threadLex FriedmanJun 12, 2023
@trustedsystem some are totally unavailable; a minority are read-only
Show threadMarcus KrügerJun 12, 2023
@lexfri Even if I am already a member of a dark subreddit.
Show threadLex FriedmanJun 12, 2023
@trustedsystem yep
Show threadMichael EdlundJun 12, 2023
@lexfri @trustedsystem I’m guessing this is not a sign of improvement.
Show threadcaptnkurtJun 12, 2023
@lexfri @trustedsystem Where is this "out of 8000 subreddits" coming from? Reddit has way more than that.
Show threadBraggJun 12, 2023
@lexfri I don’t think the $20M is solely the cost of the API calls. I think they added in the opportunity cost of 3rd party apps users not seeing their ads.
Show threadZiggy the Hamster ☎️ 4ZTHJun 13, 2023
@lexfri I can’t imagine Apollo costs them that much specifically unless they think users of Apollo are not a subset of users of Reddit. But if they think that, they probably can’t be trusted to run a company, because that’s ridiculous.
Show threadZiggy the Hamster ☎️ 4ZTHJun 13, 2023

@lexfri I mean… I know what APIs cost. You have to be doing something unfathomably wrong or Apollo has to be doing like #9 app on the App Store numbers for it to cost that much. And you can’t count what you’d pay for your own app. You have to count the difference as being Apollo’s fault. I’d be surprised if Apollo costs them more than $500/yr compared to their own app.

And that’s in the ballpark of reasonable to charge for access as well.