@roundcrisis I tried to claim this too but was sternly corrected by Merrelyn Emery. A team is a part of a larger system, the organisation. Off course, if the the team is the org, then it is a system.

@trondhjort @roundcrisis
Curious Q: what's in-between an individual and the organizational system, if a team is not a system?

@dahukanna @roundcrisis Both the teams and the individuals are parts of the system that is the org. Treating them like systems in their own rights, in this context, will lead to problems.

@dahukanna @roundcrisis The sociotechnical systems is an joint optimisation of the technical and the social aspects of a system. And the teams are the ones doing that. All parts of the system that is the org. It's all about framing as I see it and seeing the teams as one isolated system will not be suitable as you will miss the interconnection with the other parts and their joint relation to the whole.

@dahukanna @roundcrisis The two examples are what Ackoff often did, framing it as a nested hierarchy. This is a closed systems model. The open ones conceptualise the environment as well, which all systems then have.

@trondhjort @dahukanna @roundcrisis Check out Niklas Luhmanns Theory of Social Systems. Solves the problems of individual vs group vs org and inside/outside of systems very elegantly.

@weltraumpirat Weirdly, Luhmann doesn't pop up often in the STS/OST materials.

@trondhjort likely because his oeuvre is mostly German. He is extremely popular in sociology and cultural science in Germany, though.