9/ Counsel: You haven't heard much from Donald Trump in this trial. He said, She is not my type. He repeated that in his deposition. But when showed the photo DJT 23
[deposition played]
Counsel: He pointed at Ms. Carroll and said That's Marla, my wife. This is a photo of E. Jean Carroll. Their hairdo was the same. She was exactly his type. He made up an excuse. He said it was blurry. It is not blurry
10/ Now Access Hollywood tape played: Grab them by p*ssy.
Counsel: You heard Jessica Leeds & Natasha Stoynoff say he did just that to them. W Ms Carroll he, in his words, grabbed him by the p*ssy.
[deposition about history of a star can do anything played]
Counsel: He said it was fortunate stars like him can get away w it. We had 11 witnesses. On the other side? Only Trump. He didn't even bother to show up here in person. It's not he said, she said. It's what Trump said vs all other witnesses
11/ Counsel: Trump in this trial is a witness against himself. Let me give you an ex - the doors of the dressing rooms at Bergdorf Goodman were not, as the defense claims, always locked
[Note: Inner City Press went to Bergdorf, video later with booklet]
Counsel: Mr. Carroll can't specify the date, but she has all the details. She drove to 58th and 5th Avenue. She entered on the 58th Street entrance. Through that door she saw Donald Trump. They recognized each other. He was fairly well known.
12/ Counsel: Trump called E. Jean Carroll, That advice lady. Donald Trump loves to watch TV. He saw her on TV. He knew her through Roger Ailes. Mr. Trump went to the New Jersey TV studio where Ms. Carroll taped her show
Counsel: This was before streaming and YouTube. You put the channel on. You might see a few minutes of the previous show. For Donald Trump to see himself on Roger Ailes' show, he may have seen the end of E. Jean Carroll's show
14/ Counsel: This was a combination of humor and flirting. It was a joke. Like when Ms. Carroll was a writer for SNL. Tragically things took a dark turn. Into the dressing room, the door locked. She asked herself why she went in. She feels embarrassed and stupid
At that time Trump was known as a playboy, a man about town, not a predator. But he pounced. She pushed back. She weighed 120 lb, he at least 100 lb more. She tried to hit him with her purse. Trump pinned her and pulled down her tights
16/ Counsel: EJean Carroll went on a roadtrip; news broke about Harvey Weinstein. She conducted interviews. It was wks before she decided to incl Trump in her book. An excerpt was published in NY Magazine. Trump did more than deny it.
Trump attacked her from the White House, calling her a liar. She lost her job at Elle and the trust of her readers. She started sleeping with a loaded gun in her bed. She filed a lawsuit. But that did not stop him. In October 2022, Mr. Trump doubled down
18/ Okay, I'm back. Catching up from where we left off:
Counsel: You heard from expert Leslie Lebowitz that people remember traumatic events in strange ways - some details and not others. She told you Ms. Carroll suffered self-blame.
Counsel: Mr. Tapopina tried to imply there is something wrong with Ms. Carroll having tried to continue on to have a happy life, to open her Substack. Why is Mr. Trump trying to blame Ms. Carroll for these things? He argues that a victim must act like a victim.
20/ Counsel: In 2016, Leeds saw Trump running for president, deny he assaulted women. Stoynoff, in December 2005 had been in Mar-a-Lago. Trump used his M.O., closed the door and pinned her against the wall. 👉 The pattern is clear👈
LIES:
Trump says he didn't shop at Bergdorf. That was a lie. He said he didn't meet Ms. Carroll. That was a lie. He said she was not his type - but confused her with Marla Maples. He lied and said the professionally taken photo was blurry. He lied about Ailes
21/ Counsel: He had appeared with Ailes on TV, already friends in 1995. Donald Trump is lying... Tomorrow am Judge Kaplan will tell you about the law. He told you this is not a criminal case. It is a civil case. If he's liable, he's not going to jail.
The law allows you to compensate E. Jean Carroll. I'm not going to tell you how much. On behalf of our team and E. Jean Carroll, thank you.
[Whispered sidebar]Judge Kaplan: Jurors, you can start lunch now. We'll resume at noon w defense closing.
22/ Whoa.
Via Klasfeld that I missed:
Robbie Kaplan:
"News—
Robbie Kaplan says she will decline to offer a specific damage award request.
"For E. Jean Carroll, this lawsuit is not about the money."
Instead, she says, it's about getting her "name back."
23/ Catching up on the rest of Klasfeld. Here's more:
After Carroll went forward in the wake of #MeToo, Trump attacked her from his White House perch, Kaplan says.
Concerned for her security in the blowback, Kaplan said, Carroll started sleeping with a loaded gun in her bed.
Robbie Kaplan quotes psychological expert Dr. Lebowitz as saying: "People have really strange, really unexpected reactions to traumatic situations all the time."
24/ Though Tacopina suggested Carroll not screaming was implausible, the expert testified that screaming "is one of the least likely things to actually occur," Kaplan noted.
Kaplan says that Carroll remembers the alleged rape in "vivid, technicolor detail." [...]
"She remembers the sound of Trump's heavy breathing as he was facing the wall next to her neck." [...]
"She remembers certain things vividly, and other things, not so much."
25/ Kaplan:
"The psychological expert in this case believes Ms. Carroll."
Robbie Kaplan summarizing Trump's defense:
"If a woman is going to accuse a man of sexual assault, she must play the part."
Robbie Kaplan, later, on that subject:
"That's just plain wrong."
Kaplan refers to the "Big Lie" at the heart of Trump's defense: That Carroll, Lisa Birnbach and Carol Martin are all lying.
"I'm sorry. Seriously? That's just ridiculous."
26/ In fact, Kaplan notes, Martin and Birnbach's independent texts affirm that Carroll told them in 1996. Martin's private text refers to a "simple chat with a friend 25 years ago."
In another, Birnbach wrote Carroll: "It wasn't political in 1996 when you told me. It was personal." Kaplan notes that these were candid text messages that neither of them wanted exposed to the world during discovery:
"These were private texts that Carol Martin &Lisa Birnbach never expected to see the light of day"
27/ Martin's same text messages that showed unflattering statements about her friend E. Jean Carroll also showed them alluding to their 1996 conversation, where Carroll said that Trump attacked her.
In order to win, Trump needs jurors to conclude that all three women perjured themselves in the courtroom, Kaplan notes.
She adds that they know that didn't happen.
28/ Kaplan shows a chart of Carroll, Stoynoff, and Leeds allegations.
All share the following elements: "Semi-Public Place," "Grab Suddenly," and "Not My Type."
All fields are checked off for all three women.
Kaplan notes that they share another similarity:
None of them screamed.
Kaplan says that Trump's case boils down to a claim that everyone is lying:
"As Bugs Bunny used to say at the end of the Looney Tunes [episodes] that I loved as a kid, 'That's all folks.'"
29/ Kaplan asks jurors to reject that Carroll roped in several witnesses to give sworn testimony to an "extreme hoax."
Kaplan adds on that, later:
"Does that make any sense at all, or does that suggest that there is one person here who's lying — and that that person is Donald Trump?"
"Trump isn't offering a "middle ground" and doesn't admit that he was in Bergdorf Goodman.
He doesn't claim there was consent.
He claims that every "sworn detail" is a lie.
30/ Kaplan:
"You have to conclude that Donald Trump, the nonstop liar, is the only person in here telling the truth."
Me: Okay, that's everything. Recess, then defense closing.
33/ REMINDER: I'm posting from 2 sources watching this, so some redundancies in my thread.
Tac: "One thing in this country that cannot be compromised, that could not be bent, [...] is the justice system."
"It's our defense against all tyranny. Tacopina reprises his comments from the beginning:
No one's above the law. Absolutely, but no one's below it either.
Another one:
"Politicians don't make this country great. Jurors do."
34/ Tacopina contests framing that it's everyone else's word against Donald Trump. He claims Carroll's own testimony discredits her:
"He didn't tear apart her story. She tore apart her story."
Tacopina: People have passionate feeling about Donald Trump, either way. But the court is not the place to express it - that's for the ballot box. No one's below the law. If you apply the law to the facts justice will be served - quickly. Quickly.
35/ Tacopina: Ms. Carroll has abused the system. She brought a case for money, and victimized real rape victims, exploiting their pain and suffering. We cannot let her profit from her abuse of this process. I'm going to pull it all together
Ms. Kaplan said *maybe* Mr. Trump met Ms. Carroll at a TV studio in New Jersey... Or he saw a re-run. Maybe the door was open. I'm going to play you his denial:
[Deposition, Trump: It didn't happen. If it had, it would have been reported with minutes
36/ Tacopina: Let's put up Plaintiff's Exhibit 12
[That exhibit, released after Press request, is below - none of the defense exhibits have been released, nor withholding argued for by the May 6 deadline
Tacopina: How do you prove a negative? If Donald Trump had come, what could I have asked him? About some unknown date? This is a civil case. They could have called Donald Trump. But they didn't. They just want you to hate him enough
37/ Tacopina shows another clip from Trump's deposition, showing his client's response to a question about whether Trump reached out to Bergdorf Goodman:
"I didn't have to reach out to anybody because it didn't happen."
Trump on E. Jean Carroll in the deposition, shown to the jury now:
"I think she's sick, mentally sick."
Tacopina:
"That was his under oath testimony saying it's not true. I didn't do it."
38/ (re photo in #36 in my thread)
"For some reason, she held onto this photograph for three decades." He derisively discounts the notion that the image of the brief conversation shows Trump knew her.
Tacopina says Carroll's allegation forces the defense to prove a negative.
He compares it to an allegation of stealing a pen at an unknown date.
The only way to defend against it is to deny it, he says.
39/ (Again, these are redundant and out of order bc I'm quoting 2 court reporters here)
Tacopina: Why did they call Cande Carroll - to say, Dad told us to smile? It was all meant to distract you from E. Jean Carroll's story. Those other women have nothing to do it. They have no legal claim for you to decide. Ms Leeds says she was assaulted on a plane
40/ Tacopina accuses Carroll of inventing a detail about the rape allegedly happening on a Thursday on the witness stand.
"She tailored her testimony right in front of you."
He adds later: "What they want is for you to hate him enough to ignore the facts."
Tacopina on the testimony of Trump accusers Jessica Leeds and Natasha Stoynoff:
"They have nothing to do about whether you should believe E. Jean Carroll's unbelievable story."
41/ Tacopina highlights his cross-ex of Leeds, whose testimony that Trump sexually assaulted her on a plane he calls "absurd."
Q: So it is your testimony that getting sexually assaulted on a plane is sort of just rigors of travel?
A: Yes.
Tacopina: Ms. Leeds says she didn't tell her boss because she didn't want to complain about the rigors of travel. Are you kidding me? She says Donald Trump called her "the c*nt from the airplane," in front of his wife. She was enraged in front of her TV
42/ Tacopina: Ms. Stoynoff, I did ask her, Do you have anything for this jury to decide? How many times did they play the Access Hollywood tape - five? Donald Trump said women LET you do it. Yes it was crude. He apologized for it in the debate with Hillary Clinton [ME: 🤦♀️ 🙄 ]
They are using the Art of Distraction. They are trying to take parts of Donald Trump you hate and stretch them over her story. If this weren't about Trump, we wouldn't be here today. No way.
[ME: Weak, Tackypina, weak]
43/ Tacopina calls the testimony of the other accusers "distractions," saying they were called for the same reason they played the "Access Hollywood" five times.
He describes it as showing what Trump says women are "letting" stars do.
"It's crude, it's rude," he says.
(Again: I'M NOT THERE. I'm quoting @KlasfeldReports and Matthew Russell Lee)
44/ Tacopina hammers the Law & Order SVU episode testimony hard.
Tacopina: Here's the email about the Law & Order episode. What does Ms. Carroll say? That this kind of thing happens all the time. All the time? Rape in a lingerie changing room in Bergdorf Goodman? Give me a break.
Carroll's lawyer: Objection. Your Honor, you issued an order about this very issue, yesterday I think -
Judge Kaplan: Yesterday?
Carroll's lawyer Roberta Kaplan: I apologize, we wrote about it yesterday.
45/ More: Plaintiff objects, asking for a limiting instruction.
Judge begins: "There is a distinction to be drawn here, and ultimately, you will decide what to make of this if anything."
Judge tells jurors that the "alleged" episode was not offered for the truth of the matter.
He notes that the evidence before the jury was an email sent to Carroll about the episode.
If the email said the "moon was made of green cheese," jurors wouldn't need to conclude the moon was made of green cheese.
46/ Tacopina's distinction:
When asked about the existence of the episode, Carroll replied: "I am aware, yes."
"This seems pretty clear evidence [...] that that episode existed."
Tacopina said:
"Back to the coincidence: 'Are you kidding me?'"
He refers to the transcript:
Q: What do you mean amazing? I assuming amazing coincidence?
A: Yes. Astonishing.
47/ Tacopina derides allegation that his client would "risk it all" to rape someone across the street from Trump Tower, "within minutes":
"'Apprentice' over. Trump Tower over. Everything over."
48/ Tacopina:"Donald Trump is shopping in the most attentive, upscale store in NYC," possibly the "world."
Tacopina: According to Ms. Carroll, the sixth floor of Bergdorf Goodman was like The Walking Dead, the tv show. No one there at all. "That doesn't sound right, and I think you know that," he adds late... I come from regular stock, 👉 it offended me👈 when they said sales clerks cannot be trusted to follow the rules.
[ME: But Rapist Trump DOESN'T offend him?]
49/ Tac on Carroll:"She needs to reverse engineer a story. She needed to create a scenario where no one else would be involved — No one else would be involved."
Tacopina:
👉 "Her tights didn't rip after this 'colossal struggle.'"👈
[Me: EXCUSE ME??!]
Tac: Ms. Carroll had to reverse engineer her story. Then there's the physical attack she alleges. How does Mr. Trump unzip while she is hitting him with her bag, in 4 in. heels? So they have a hired gun, Dr Lebowitz, $650/hr. She was not credible
50/ Tacopina on Carroll's psychological expert Leslie Lebowitz:
"Her opinion here is meaningless because she has no firsthand knowledge of Ms. Carroll's claim."
[ME: Expert witness, genius, not eye witness]
Tacopina on the expert's report:
"This is an example of 'garbage in, garbage out.'" [ME: He just described Trump. Typical projection]
51/ ME: I literally gasped at this one:
Tacopina swipes at Carroll describing herself as a "massive" fan of "The Apprentice":
"You have to believe the show that she was a massive fan of was hosted by her rapist."
52/ Tac: Ms. Caroline didn't tell Dr Lebowitz she was a "massive fan," her words, of The Apprentice. Dr Lebowitz gave the example of a Vietnam vet who had a reaction to the smell of Vietnamese food. Ms. Carroll, no response. She watches the Apprentice.
I asked her, Did you joke around about having sex for money with Donald Trump? She answered yes, on Facebook. Here is Defense Exhibit CU - note: not a single Defense Exhibit has been made available, no argument offered https://t.co/CjV2jGqM9O
53/ Backing up a little, via Klasfeld:
Tacopina swipes at expert Dr. Lebowitz's findings:
"Ms. Carroll doesn't have anxiety, doesn't have depression, doesn't have PTSD."
ME: Wait, "doesn't have anxiety, depression..."? I thought she'd presented her "anxiety" (trauma) via testimony. WTH?
54/ Tac: Ms. Carroll wrote under her FB post, DX CU, Not taking off orange jumpsuit until Weinstein, Spacey & certain other hideous men are in jail. Defense Exhibit AW [Carroll about women down on the border getting raped around the clock.]
Tac shows this photo of a smiling EJean Carroll "gleefully" posing w, as he puts it, the likeness of her rapist.
(This is a plaintiff exhibit, from Carroll's "Most Hideous Men in NYC walking tour.)
Context: How Carroll explained her reaction.
55/ [From April 26: Showing her same photo, her atty asked her: "Why are u smiling next to someone who's dressed like Trump?"
"It's funny. He's not Donald Trump."]
[Re: FB post...[Carroll about women down on border getting raped around the clock.]
Tacopina: There was no border crisis in the mid 1990s. You know why she didn't go the police? Bc they would have investigated. A civil case is easy. There's no investig. Here, there's no diary entry. She said, She only writes about ball to the dog
56/ Tac speaks about lack of any entry in diary about Trump allegedly raping her.
Carroll said that she never made negative entries in her diaries. He says that a stip shows she wrote 3 negative entries.
Context: That's astonishingly few neg entries for her diary.
Stip also states:
Carroll turned over 3 diaries, each betw 234 and 266 pages.
3 neg. entries.
Those negative entries were about:
* being "distraught by political developments."
* her brother-in-law's death
* hurting her back.
57/ Tacopina: This was about selling her book. She claimed she didn't know what a signing bonus was- that was just wrong. She swore to tell you the truth, and didn't. She had a watch party for her lawsuit, like it was the NFL draft. She said status is important to her
Tacopina plays the Anderson Cooper interview, to "we have to take a break" and "You're fascinating to talk to," then tells jurors, You decide what that means. In this case, most of her crying was on direct examination
58/ Wow, Tackypina, just wow:
Tacopina: i"m the father of two daughters. I would never tell a rape victim what she should do - it's that she asked herself that question, about not screaming. She became a star. After the CNN interview she told friends that was having a wonderful time.
59/ Tac plays one of Carroll's podcast interviews for jurors.
In it, Carroll describing her getting her "revenge" on Elle for firing her bc she's more successful going independent on Substack.
Tacopina: She said she got her revenge on Elle with her Substack, she said "I'm back, so long Elle." Let's consider their reputational harm expert, 👉 not that she matters.👈 [ME: But matters enough to quote?] She didn't even weigh Ms. Carroll's work on her own reputation. She had a political motivation
60/ Tacopina: They took this out of her book, because it went too far: He's trying to kill me and poison my air. I asked her, Did you write that in your initial draft? It showed the political bias.
She wrote, Why isn't a rape allegation worthy of impeachment?
[ME: I've asked that very same question, but I digress...]
61/ Tacopina claims that Carroll, Birnbach and Martin "colluded" to make up false accusations against Trump.
[ME: NO COLLUSION! NO COLLUSION! HOAX! WITCH HUNT! Sorry, I had to. #Bygones ]
Tacopina: Ms. Birnbach told you she thinks Donald Trump for what he has done politically should be held accountable. So she's tried to hold him accountable, E. Jean Carroll's given her the opportunity. Carol Martin said she wasn't even asked to remain silent.
62/ Tacopina notes that both Martin and Birnbach testified they never told anyone else about it. He noted that Martin never even brought it up on election night, 2016.
She didn't say: "Oh, my God. He's going to win. He raped my friend,"
Tac: Here's another exhibit-
[Shows it on screen, has not released or tried to justify]
about "Matthew Craig referred me to a lawyer called Noam" [Biale] and that they have to get together." Then they are watching Trump be elected, no mention of Trump & rape
63/ Tacopina mocks Birnbach's testimony that she wasn't thinking of Trump allegedly raping E. Jean Carroll on election night 2016.
"I wasn't thinking about it," Birnbach said.
He says there's "no way that's truthful testimony."
Tacopina: Lisa Birnbach said she needed Ms Carroll's permission to think about it- is it believable? Then there's the envelopes with the blue ribbons. Ms. Birnbach said she didn't open or read it because it sounded heavy. And she's a writer. Does that make sense?
64/ Tacopina: So the NYT reporter Megan Twohey is going to interview the two - Ms. Carroll tells them to say they never read the chapter, because it might seem they got the story FROM the chapter. Ms. Carroll was lying to you about this too
[ME: You wanna talk liars, Tackypina? You represent one. You are one. Next.]
65/ Tacopina: They were just work friends until bk came out. But we're supposed to believe Ms. Carroll called Lisa Birnbach &essentially dictated the chapter from her bk, w details like a revolving door & "you're the advice lady." Right.
Tac flags Carroll's message to Birnbach in 2019, abt her convo w NYT journalist Megan Twohey.
Carroll says she told Twohey: "That I turned over the entire book to you when I got sick, and we agreed you would publish it when I croaked, and you never read it."
66/ Tacopina tells jurors that Carroll never planned to sue Trump until Geo. Conway
"got his hooks" into her. Tacopina flags a reference to "George" in Carroll's testimony:
"George is George Conway: archenemy of Donald Trump"
Tacopina: Ms. Carroll never intended to sue until Mr Conway told her to seriously think of suing Donald Trump. First she told me, & you, no. But from her deposition, she said "Wherever I went, people said, Are you going to see him," I said no. Then George said...
67/ Tacopina hits an email between E. Jean Carroll and Carol Martin, where the latter wrote the former on Sept. 23, 2017:
"As soon as we're both well enuf to scheme, we must do our patriotic duty again."
Martin referred to Trump as "Orange Crush" higher in the chain.
68/ Tacopina: Here is the scheming email [schemail?], about Nambia. I asked Ms. Carroll about this. She said she had no idea what it was about. But she remembers from 27 years ago revolving doors and hats. She says scheme means plan. No it doesn't.
Let's try using that in a sentence. Let's scheme to go get pizza. Let's scheme to go to the Yankee game. It doesn't work. OK. That's doesn't make sense.
69/ Then when Ms. Martin knows they'll be subpoened she write, no more texts & chats until further notice. That's Cripp [cryp?] talk. That's not how people who have nothing to say talk. Now something lethal to them - a message, trying to thread the needle. "Scheme' is exactly what you think it means.
Tacopina: Carol Martin to her friend, about E. Jean Carroll: it's gone to another level, she's going to sue T, WTF, I can't relate to it.
[Pause]
Tacopina: That's it: game, set and match.
@GottaLaff perfect phone call?
(Thank you for all these btw)
@GottaLaff Note: these wilder, even offensive, arguments have a purpose: to try and connect and support and reinforce any similar thoughts that one or two jurors might have had. If even one juror has thought, well, this one aspect of her story doesn't make sense, then the lawyer saying the same thing out loud may win that juror over.
It's a strategy that works better in criminal defense, where just one juror means acquittal. In a civil trial, you risk alienating other jurors and it might not pan out. But he has a losing case anyway, so I understand why he's taking these wild swings.
@msbellows Totally. And I said the very same thing about swinging a juror or 2 earlier.
I get his strategy. I hate it, but I get it.
@msbellows Thank you. All I'm doing is transcribing other reporters. But my whole compulsion is informing people generally, about what they need to know to keep this democracy going. This is also one trial I REALLY want to end badly for Trump on behalf of women everywhere, absolutely.
Thanks so much.
@GottaLaff @sylviedparris as a man who knew this but also made the same uninformed assumption...I would very much like the women on the jury to bring in an example of each so the men on the jury can be properly educated.
Also men (incl. Me): plz try to be less ignorant about so many things
Lol
Laffy
Jenny Fx
Sean McCabe
Shane
HeatherLynn8571
Tom Maxwell
Sylvie Parris
M.S. Bellows, Jr.
Pusher Of Pixels (old account)