Spam (like the torrent of cryptoscamspam lots of people got this morning) has been very rare for me here (and dealt with quickly), but I've noticed that almost all of the spam I've gotten has been via Mastodon's DM feature.

I really wish there was a way to turn DMs off or at least restrict them to people I follow. Control over incoming DMs was a thing Twitter did better than here.

Please stop telling me about the "block DMs from people you don't follow" checkbox. I know about that. It doesn't work properly. It results in people THINKING they've sent you a message that you never actually see.
Because this is Mastodon, I'm now getting people lecturing me on why this obviously broken behavior is "correct".

Another way DMs are hopelessly broken: if your handle is mentioned anywhere in a DM, you get a copy.

Yes, I understand why (technically) it might work that way. That doesn't mean it's not broken.

DMs here are a dumpster fire of buggy behavior and non-intuitive semantics.

Yeah, I should "just go back to Twitter if I hate so much here". Eyeroll.
Just to be clear, in case it isn't obvious: If I say "I don't want this feature to work this way", I don't mean YOU shouldn't want it. But please don't tell me that because you like it, I should too.
DM behavior is a big deal, because people, for better or worse, often use DMs for both private things (that should stay confidential) and important things (that they expect to be seen by the recipient). The way Mastodon mishandles and obfuscates the semantics of both is a big source of potential harm to users.

Broadly, one of the reasons Mastodon DMs are such a mess, I think, is that mixing a private messaging function with a broadcast medium tends to end badly. My students and I explored this mismatch a bit a while back.

https://www.mattblaze.org/papers/spw2011-mab.pdf

Mastodon, like email and encrypted two-way radio, is based (approximately) on a "throw the message out there and hope for the best" delivery model. But the reliable protocols we use for secure and one-on-one communication are based on multi-round-trip handshakes and negotiation before and during message exchanges. Shoehorning DMs into the same mechanism to broadcast out toots is an inherent impedance mismatch.
@mattblaze the way I explain it is - writing an email is like sending a postcard (anyone handling the postcard can read it) but a Mastodon DM is more like putting a message on a lawn sign or a billboard (anyone walking by can read it.)
@idyll @mattblaze mastodon DMs are exactly like postcards too though. I don't understand how they would be like billboards because people walking by can't read it. You can only see if it you've admin rights to the instance or if your mastodon address is added via an @ mention
@mattblaze end-to-end encrypted DMs are on the roadmap so the decoupling is on its way
@mattblaze This is exactly why I hate DMs here!
@amye @mattblaze the implementation is so unsettling I've barely used them.
@mattblaze bruh, take a deep breath. Oof.

@mattblaze I thought that was the intent, but I suppose that my use case is very different than yours.

Blackholing unwanted messages is desirable if you want/need to avoid giving harassers feedback that they can use to harass you more effectively

I suppose there are reasons someone would want block/reject as opposed to block/blackhole

@RandomDamage It's basically replacing your mailbox with a paper shredder.

@mattblaze @RandomDamage you know, after giving it some thought, I think I do see your point on this issue.

There would be value in providing the ability for a user to send a Reject object in response to a Create or Announce object (message, boost respectively), and for servers to appropriately respond to such objects by alerting their respective recipients to that Reject.

The standard states that the semantic of how to handle a Reject is different depending on what it's in response to, but only calls out specific behavior with regards to the Follow object.

@mattblaze This appears to be possible, according to some peoples' reports:

https://wandering.shop/@Johannab/110310919982165399

johannab, cafe proprietor (@[email protected])

Attached: 1 image Friends, have a look in your account settings for THIS: It is somewhat confusingly located under "notifications", but a few admins just quick-tested this, and it seems you CAN block DMs from accounts you do not follow.

The Wandering Shop
@andrew It doesn't work properly. It just prevents me from seeing them, but the message still gets sent (meaning that the person who sent it will think I got it). I want it not to be possible to send it if I don't follow (or for them to at least be notified).
@mattblaze Ah that's confusing; some sort of notification to the sender would definitely make sense 👍
@mattblaze Preferences > Notifications > Block direct messages from people you don't follow.
@nuz Nope. Doesn't work.
@mattblaze seems to work perfectly for me! you might want to open a bug report on the official mastodon github repo and include the steps you took (so they can reproduce your problem), the behavior you observed, and your expected/desired behavior. 

@nuz No it doesn't. People aren't prevented from sending you DMs if you don't follow them.

What the setting does is prevent you from seeing it. But it allows people to labor under the false impression that they've sent you a message.

@mattblaze @nuz Who cares if the sender *thinks* they sent the message. If you don't see it, it may as well not exist. Shadow-bans are a useful tool for bad faith actors.
@snarky @nuz In general, I don’t want people to send me messages that they think I’ll see that I won’t actually see. Most people who send me DMs aren’t bad faith actors. They’re random individuals trying to reach me via a mechanism that I don’t want to use. I want to alert people who mistakenly use it that I won’t see their messages so they can use something else. But Mastodon doesn’t let me.
@mattblaze @nuz Then petition the folks who maintain the system to add that capability, don't complain that what's there (and has been there for YEARS) doesn't work for you. It's frustrating to see people pop in here, dismiss the history of why things are the way they are, and insist that things bet the way THEY want them.
@snarky @mattblaze @nuz Telling people that Matt only accepts direct messages from people whom he follows seems less of a privacy intrusion that letting Johny Bitcoiner discover that he has been individually blocked -- which *is* pretty easy today.

@snarky

The history? You're saying this is a design choice? What design process occurred where mentioning someone's @ actually brings that person to the conversation?

You know how a lot of problems could be solved? A pop up that says "Warning: you appear to be using direct Mentions. Anyone who you mention will be notified. Tick to remove this box." That's not a guard rail but it's better than the current "system".

@mattblaze @nuz

@Homebrewandhacking @mattblaze @nuz Yes, it is a design choice. As mentioned by others in this thread, the decision was made to not tell people their DMs were blocked as a type of shadow-ban. This increases the friction of those who use DMs to harass and threaten, as they don't know for sure that their bad faith attempts actually failed. Note that I'm *not* saying that Matt's use case is invalid. I'm saying that the current functionality was built as it was for a reason.

@snarky

Certainly after 12 hours have passed the thread does get more detailed. Thanks for your help.

@mattblaze @nuz

@snarky @Homebrewandhacking @mattblaze @nuz

Few things regarding federation in Mastodon are conscious design choices. The way Mastodon handles instance silence/limits, mutes, and DM mutes are byproducts of the ActivityPub standard not being built with harassment in mind. The current implementation of client-side muting rather than rejection of messages is a mistake of ignorance that leads to more harassment, not a purposeful decision.

@Homebrewandhacking @mattblaze @nuz If you think something would work "better" than what's currently implemented, then you can propose the change and if enough people agree it gets done. That's the beauty of the fediverse and open source software. Make a convincing argument that's not "this doesn't work HOW I WANT IT TO" and someone will pick it up and make it happen.
@snarky this you?
@mawhrin This is my newer account, yes. I've been around Mastodon since 2018, IIRC.
@snarky were you such annoying nimby arse on the previous one?
@mawhrin Nope, and I'm not being a "NIMBY arse" here, either. I'm not saying Matt's feature request isn't valid, I'm just saying that the current feature was designed like it was for a reason. Also, be kind or be blocked.

@snarky i am kind, i'm just not polite – so fucking block me; i don't care.

(and if you think that there's a deeper thought behind the slapdash design that rochko affixed on top of ap, you're deluded.)

@mawhrin You do you, boo.
@snarky you're one of those reply humans that just must have last word, eh?
@mawhrin Apparently you are as well. This could run infinitely.
@snarky @mattblaze @nuz If you find Matt's writings frustrating, perhaps you should use the existing Mastodon features to avoid seeing them.

@oclsc i think you might have missed the fact that i only jumped into this thread to try to help matt resolve his stated problem. but i can see how my early messages could have gotten lost in his barrage of straw man fallacies, so no biggie.

i'm not "frustrated by matt's writings" - at least not in the way i'm guessing you mean. rather, i'm disappointed that someone i formerly respected was so eager to silence and mischaracterize the marginalized folks who were only trying to say: "hey, the current system is designed to protect us. it might not work well for you, and here's how to go about changing that, but it definitely isn't 'broken'."

reread the thread and check his accusations against what was actually said to him - you'll see that most of his posts are DARVO, ad hominem, and straw man fallacies all the way down. it's extremely disappointing to see this from a "professor of computer science and law" with a large following on here.

more importantly, though - his actions are a clear display of white privilege, and a prime example of the type of behavior that makes BIPOC folks feel unsafe on mastodon.

the only thing that's "frustrating" to me is that other white people can't seem to see that kind of behavior for what it actually is.

@snarky @mattblaze

@oclsc @mattblaze @nuz Thanks for the helpful suggestion.

@snarky

That's literally all this dude does on here.

@nuz

@mattblaze https://github.com/mastodon/mastodon/issues/11882 looks like the issue in question. To test the theory that random people can fix issues and make Mastodon better for others, I think I'll have a go at this one. Should be good for a laugh as I've never contributed to Mastodon before, or even written Ruby before. :D
"Block direct messages from people you don't follow" is a mute, not a block · Issue #11882 · mastodon/mastodon

A friend and I just did some testing of the "Block direct messages from people you don't follow" feature. There are multiple problems we discovered which could be resolved as part of a single fix. ...

GitHub