Julie WebgirlYour expectation of the system is broken, not the system itself.
Speed demon 🇪🇺 🇳🇴🇺🇦🇵🇸@juliewebgirl @lucywildboots @fediversenews
Harsh, but I agree.
I'll try to put it another way:
Over time, different sets of "how we do it here" will crystallize. Give it time.
Say you have an instance that de-fedederates too much, rather than tell their users to use tools at /their/ disposal. If they truly are an outlier, they'll isolate themselves, maybe with a group of others. You'll get various spheres in the fediverse. You might end up in a big or a small one, and it'll shift over time.
Ada@hakona @juliewebgirl @[email protected] @[email protected] Something to realise is that not everyone is looking for the same experience as you.
I admin a server focused on trans and gender diverse folk. The whole point of the community is to give folk a safe space to exist without having to be super defensive.
If we didn't moderate aggressively, our users would be regularly sent death threats and hate, and I'm not willing to tell people they need to respond reactively to that after they've already been exposed to it.
So for that reason, we pre-emptively defederate from communities that are likely to be sources of even low grade transphobia before most of our users have to deal with it.
If that's not the environment you're looking for, then that's where federation and decentralisation is powerful, because you have the choice. But if you trans or gender diverse and are looking for a space to exist without having to be onguard all the time, then spaces like that can exist too, thanks to a more aggressive defederation.
I admin a server focused on trans and gender diverse folk. The whole point of the community is to give folk a safe space to exist without having to be super defensive.
If we didn't moderate aggressively, our users would be regularly sent death threats and hate, and I'm not willing to tell people they need to respond reactively to that after they've already been exposed to it.
So for that reason, we pre-emptively defederate from communities that are likely to be sources of even low grade transphobia before most of our users have to deal with it.
If that's not the environment you're looking for, then that's where federation and decentralisation is powerful, because you have the choice. But if you trans or gender diverse and are looking for a space to exist without having to be onguard all the time, then spaces like that can exist too, thanks to a more aggressive defederation.
Cynthia Morse Linton@ada Because I have interacted with you before I am going to try one last time to explain the problem. And a reminder, I’m a bisexual, so I am (allegedly) part of the community you have mentioned.
What you do on your instance. How you moderate on your instance. Are between you and your members. And if you behave in a manner I find reprehensible; I can voluntarily leave.
The problem is when you insist that the rules of your instance must be followed on another instance and if they do not, you will defederate them. At the point when you say, “behave this way in your instance or we will do X” then you have moved from moderation to extortion. And let’s be clear money is involved. This is one instance owner who is probably taking donations from instance users threatening another instance owner in the same situation.
That is different from “co-sysops this guy is a problem; he won’t moderate at all or not to our exacting requirements. For the protection of our instance we are defederating.” You have every right to do that, even when you are making assumptions about what all queer people want and/or that all queer people agree on X or Y when you know good and well we don’t. That’s your right as instance owner/manager and I will support it even when I think you’re making a mistake.
This is the fediverse as I understand it. And I am telling you from a technical and human perspective it is 1. Not scalable and 2 will, over time, create frictions between Big Name Instances and smaller ones. I’ll likely be dead by the time it happens, but there’s my prognostication. Do with it as you will. I’m out of the discussion.
@juliewebgirl @hakona
What you do on your instance. How you moderate on your instance. Are between you and your members. And if you behave in a manner I find reprehensible; I can voluntarily leave.
The problem is when you insist that the rules of your instance must be followed on another instance and if they do not, you will defederate them. At the point when you say, “behave this way in your instance or we will do X” then you have moved from moderation to extortion. And let’s be clear money is involved. This is one instance owner who is probably taking donations from instance users threatening another instance owner in the same situation.
That is different from “co-sysops this guy is a problem; he won’t moderate at all or not to our exacting requirements. For the protection of our instance we are defederating.” You have every right to do that, even when you are making assumptions about what all queer people want and/or that all queer people agree on X or Y when you know good and well we don’t. That’s your right as instance owner/manager and I will support it even when I think you’re making a mistake.
This is the fediverse as I understand it. And I am telling you from a technical and human perspective it is 1. Not scalable and 2 will, over time, create frictions between Big Name Instances and smaller ones. I’ll likely be dead by the time it happens, but there’s my prognostication. Do with it as you will. I’m out of the discussion.
@juliewebgirl @hakona
@[email protected] @juliewebgirl @hakona I mean, no one holds power here, that's why decentralisation is awesome.
If I say to another instance admin that I am going to defederate from their community because their policies cause distress to my community, then the other admin is free to either change their policy or to keep their policy. They have all the power in the world to tell me they're not interested in changing their policy and then getting defederated.
And that's ultimately what it's about each time a defederation discussion arises. "How much do I value the instance that is going to defederate with me" vs "How much do I value the current rules and values of my community"
You will always stay connected with people who share your values, and you will find yourself losing people who strongly disagree with your values.
That's not going to change. It's the strength of the system.
But yeah, as you say, big name instances are going to be the challenge. We've already seen it with .social, where moderation is slow to respond, and signs ups are open. But they hold power because of their size.
But even there, the choice is still available to federate or defederate. If it becomes important enough, we can cut ourselves off even from instances like that. There is always a choice.
If I say to another instance admin that I am going to defederate from their community because their policies cause distress to my community, then the other admin is free to either change their policy or to keep their policy. They have all the power in the world to tell me they're not interested in changing their policy and then getting defederated.
And that's ultimately what it's about each time a defederation discussion arises. "How much do I value the instance that is going to defederate with me" vs "How much do I value the current rules and values of my community"
You will always stay connected with people who share your values, and you will find yourself losing people who strongly disagree with your values.
That's not going to change. It's the strength of the system.
But yeah, as you say, big name instances are going to be the challenge. We've already seen it with .social, where moderation is slow to respond, and signs ups are open. But they hold power because of their size.
But even there, the choice is still available to federate or defederate. If it becomes important enough, we can cut ourselves off even from instances like that. There is always a choice.