Mastodawn

Ken White Apr 19, 2023

Serious Trouble episode (with a re-recorded section after settlement) about Dominion dropping today. We didn’t talk about:
* No trial result would have had the judge ordering Fox to apologize on air
*No trial result would have resulted in Fox being punished for damage to democracy
*. No trial result could have ”established facts” as true or false for all purposes in America
If your expectations for the legal system are not reality-based you’re going to be consistently disappointed.

Dave Nicponski Apr 19, 2023

Zoomer Antimillenarian

@Popehat There's a certain kind of progressive for whom having trial deliberations livestreamed on Maddow is "accountability" but having to pay nearly $800M isn't.

People should celebrate! Fox just lost 6 mo net revenue in a high-interest-rate economy! And since they can't stop *lying*, now and then they're gonna risk having this mess repeat all over again when they've gotta step over the line *again* to keep the viewers loyal.

Stan R. Mitchell Apr 19, 2023

@surcomplicated @Popehat

That's a great point. It's a LOT of money, by any standard.

Zoomer Antimillenarian Apr 19, 2023

@stanrmitchell @Popehat It's vastly more than Dominion was ever worth. Just an incredible L for Fox and the entire GOP Entertainment Wing business community.

Steve In Ashland Apr 19, 2023

@surcomplicated @stanrmitchell @Popehat

Except it's not about revenue for a lot of Fox supporters, especially the very wealthy. It's about driving the U.S. political system further into fascism, so that they can continue to tear down anything that blocks unregulated capitalism.

Fox's financial loss here is a cost-of-business against the bigger win of deregulated capitalism.

Zoomer Antimillenarian Apr 19, 2023

@steveinashland @stanrmitchell @Popehat "Further into fascism" dude we're governed by Sleepy Joe, not Paul von Hindenburg.

Get a grip. Things are looking up.

Steve In Ashland Apr 20, 2023

@surcomplicated @stanrmitchell @Popehat

"Things are looking up" You're clearly not paying attention to Tennessee, Florida, Texas, Idaho, or any number of other states. Plus SCOTUS.

Stan R. Mitchell Apr 20, 2023

@steveinashland @surcomplicated @Popehat Two potential counter points, which indicated things are looking up. Point one: https://open.substack.com/pub/stanmitchell/p/the-light-of-dawn-emerges?r=az6fa&utm_medium=ios&utm_campaign=post

The light of dawn emerges

Welcome to the first post of Thoughts from a Southern Gentleman. I’ll cover two items in this edition: Why I’m doing this publication. And why I’m surprised more moderates aren’t breathing easier yet.Thoughts from a Southern Gentleman. is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.

Thoughts from a Southern Gentleman

Stan R. Mitchell Apr 20, 2023

@steveinashland @surcomplicated @Popehat Point two: https://open.substack.com/pub/stanmitchell/p/more-sunlight-shines-across-the-land?r=az6fa&utm_medium=ios&utm_campaign=post (I hope those two posts help lift your spirits. 👊❤️🇺🇸)

More sunlight shines across the land

Hello, my friends! I hope you’ve had a great week! It has certainly been a great week for democracy. As I stated might happen in my last post, the two Tennessee House legislators have been reinstated. Not only were the two Democrats reinstated, but the Tennessean Republican Party in the House is

Thoughts from a Southern Gentleman

Zoomer Antimillenarian Apr 24, 2023

@steveinashland @stanrmitchell @Popehat Things, my friend, are goddamn looking up.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/entertainment/news/tucker-carlson-out-host-has-left-fox-news-network-announces/ar-AA1ahjaC

Tucker Carlson leaves Fox News in wake of Dominion Voting Systems lawsuit

Fox News host Tucker Carlson has left his post, and his last show was Friday, the company announced in a news release.

MSN

William B. Turner Apr 19, 2023

@surcomplicated @Popehat. Interest rates are not that high. Sure, this is a good decision on balance, but the impact on Faux "News" is negligible.

Zoomer Antimillenarian Apr 19, 2023

@wbtphdjd @Popehat How would you feel if I took 6 mo of your discretionary income from you? Fox's investors are not going to be happy. Some of them are actually suing over this debacle!

Graydon Apr 19, 2023

@surcomplicated @Popehat A fine is a price.

Prices are not, of their nature, justice.

Many people would like to see something resembling justice visited upon the folks determined to replace democracy with autocracy. They're not wrong that whatever this was, it wasn't justice.

(I'd question it was even accountability; the Fox business model does not seem likely to alter.)

Zoomer Antimillenarian Apr 19, 2023

@graydon @Popehat Look, I'm sorry that you didn't get the glorious final judgement of Fox you wanted. But you were never going to get that.

What we did get is a bleeding wound in the entire right-wing infotainment business model, twisted into the hole already left by Alex Jones' massive judgments.

Culture is downstream of economics. This will have a long-term effect on the media market.

Graydon Apr 19, 2023

@surcomplicated @Popehat I don't believe the Murdochs are acting out of economic motivations or that this will change anything about the infotainment business model.

Despite which I was aware that it was either going to get settled or Dominion would lose.

My comment was intended as a remark on the extent to which the legal system is unable to do anything to disquiet mammonite practices.

Almost everything is downstream of some basic primate fairness ideas. Eventually, even when it's hopeless.

Zoomer Antimillenarian Apr 24, 2023

@graydon
Accountability!
https://www.msn.com/en-us/entertainment/news/tucker-carlson-out-host-has-left-fox-news-network-announces/ar-AA1ahjaC

Tucker Carlson leaves Fox News in wake of Dominion Voting Systems lawsuit

Fox News host Tucker Carlson has left his post, and his last show was Friday, the company announced in a news release.

MSN

Mickrob9777 Apr 19, 2023

@surcomplicated @Popehat

I’m one of them. Fox losing a law suit means they write a check, dominion gets money and nothing changes. Whether or not it is live-streamed on Maddow is irrelevant to me

Zoomer Antimillenarian Apr 19, 2023

@Mickrob9777 @Popehat What do you think investors in right-wing media want? Some are just crazy, but many want money. This is a lot of money, and suggests a severe inherent problem in the entire business model, even if you're an amoral investor.

Mickrob9777 Apr 19, 2023

@surcomplicated @Popehat

Definitely an inherent problem because with no moral compass they're willing to do anything to recoup that money. I have no doubt they will be successful

Conlan Spangler Apr 19, 2023

@surcomplicated @Popehat It’s a positive outcome, and some people were hoping for the impossible, but I think you’re describing a bit of a false dichotomy. It’s good that Fox has to pay a bunch of money, but it would be better if they had to do it after putting their shitheads and their shittiness on prominent public display in a trial.

Unlettered Peasant Apr 19, 2023

@surcomplicated @Popehat
And there is still the Smartmatic suit in New York state for $2.7 billion

Shawn Apr 19, 2023

@surcomplicated @Popehat yeah I’m happy about it. I pointed out to my conservative connections on fb that it is an $800M admission that they lie to their viewers without much consternation. I hope people do flee it and watch them even crazier right wing fake news shows which are easier to denounce as pure propaganda than FOX has historically been. Maybe FOX will be forced to moderate itself to try to win over some centrist viewers.

QueerCat_Bisexual

@surcomplicated
If nothing changes then what is there to celebrate? Money went from one multimillion dollar corporation to another. I no more celebrate that then celebrate McDonald's buying their yearly allotment of beef.

Arguably the only thing Fox will have learned is where the line is so they can edge right up to it without crossing in the future. So don't expect anymore payouts like this.

As for Dominion, yay. Another private equity firm (Staple Street) got a payday. I do love seeing rich people get richer.
@Popehat

Zoomer Antimillenarian Apr 19, 2023

@affekt @Popehat $787.5M is going to change things. Maybe not at *Fox* all that much, but I'm willing to bet investors in the GOP Entertainment Wing business community are going to get cold feet after all the tribulations Fox, Newsmax, OAN, and Alex Jones have got themselves into while chasing the right-wing rage-addict viewership.

QueerCat_Bisexual

@surcomplicated
You are far more optimistic than I am that this won't be seen as a particularly strong return on investment. A one time payout to understand exactly how much they can get away with and continue to reap record revenue. A few hundred million amortized against the last 20 years of disinformation and probably another 20 moving forward? Twenty million a year? Tucker alone costs nearly twice that.
@Popehat

Doug Warren Apr 19, 2023

@surcomplicated @Popehat

It doesn't help that none of us know how much 800 million dollars is. Is it a little? A lot? Will this expense hurt Fox News a lot? A little? Will it end them as a going concern? Will they even notice?

It's like if you told me how hot the supernova is compared to an ordinary star. I've already burned to a cinder anyway, thanks.

Nick Hayes Apr 19, 2023

@DougWar40k @surcomplicated @Popehat

As an accountant, it’s a shit ton of money to have hit at once. These companies operate on thin margins. It cant just be settled off their books. I’d reckon Fox has been reserving expense for the legal risk leading up to this to ease the blow. That would be standard practice

It will cause considerable chaos for their internal financial teams and cost cutting will lead to job loss. Shareholders won’t like this

Zoomer Antimillenarian Apr 19, 2023

@nickhayes @DougWar40k @Popehat I really do not want to be one of the lawyers who have to figure out how to politely write "We think our viewers are 'cousin-f***er terrorists' who have to be lied to all day, so we may have to commit big-$$$ libel now and then." into the shareholder correspondence.

Zoomer Antimillenarian Apr 19, 2023

@DougWar40k @Popehat Half a year's worth of net revenue is going to sting.

Nick Hayes Apr 19, 2023

@surcomplicated @Popehat

I’m an accountant and I shudder to think what Fox accounting and finance will go through from this hit.

You don’t just take a billion dollar hit and go business as usual after that. I’d feel sorry but I also chose not to work for the far right so I can only sympathize a tiny tiny bit.

I’d kill to see their whole balance sheet before and after and what they have accrued so far for the legal risk here.

Zoomer Antimillenarian Apr 19, 2023

@nickhayes @Popehat If I were a Fox shareholder I'd really want to know
(a) If Fox has a libel insurer
(b) How much the cap is, or if there are any contractual conditions or legal principles that could void the insurance
(c) When that insurance policy ends, because Fox will have a hell of a time getting libel insurance ever again.

Taco Apr 19, 2023

@surcomplicated it’s less than a month’s revenue for Fox.

Steve Hersey Apr 19, 2023

@surcomplicated @Popehat
I'll be honest, there's little in the way of a settlement that could satisfy me short of putting Fox' entire C-suite and lead "personalities" into wicker men and raffling off the torches.
But this is certainly a good start, and puts lots of the discovery in the court record ahead of the inevitable repeat offenses.

Zoomer Antimillenarian Apr 19, 2023

@n1xnx @Popehat I mean, I'm glad you're just saying it out loud.

But no, I really do not find even the hypothetical of having a lynch mob burn Fox execs and personalities alive appealing.

Even if you never resort to violence, this instinct leads you to bad places, some of them quite like the bad places Fox viewership has rage-junkied itself into.

Steve Hersey Apr 19, 2023

@surcomplicated @Popehat
True.
It is sometimes frustrating to be the faction that has ethical limits, but the alternative isn't worth contemplating.

TessHKM Apr 20, 2023

@surcomplicated @n1xnx @Popehat extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue.

Steve Hersey Apr 20, 2023

@TessHKM @surcomplicated @Popehat

The flaw in this idea is that once you get into the-ends-justify-the-means territory, it's a short, steep, slippery slope to becoming as bad as the evil you're trying to fight. Most successful revolutions suffer that fate.

Both the French and Russian revolutions provide excellent examples of this.

So, no. I don't agree that extremism in defense of, well, anything, is a good idea. If we cannot save democracy without using tools of oppression, it was already dead.

TessHKM Apr 20, 2023

@n1xnx @surcomplicated the flaw in this kind of argument is that I have literally never left "ends-justify-the-means" territory, because to my intuitive understanding, it's the only way to make ethical decisions that isn't obviously evil lol. A slippery slope towards evil sounds better than just jumping off a cliff and starting out there - at least you can be cautious enough to avoid slipping and the strong enough to pull yourself back up when you do.

Sadie Apr 19, 2023

@surcomplicated @Popehat Don't talk to me about "net" revenue. What percentage of "gross" revenue is it?

Eufalconimorph Apr 19, 2023

@surcomplicated @Popehat And don't forget shareholder lawsuits for breach of fiduciary duty.

@surcomplicated @Popehat is there a good study about people’s moral reasonings about fines? I imagine people would feel quite different if such a fine were paired with a public act of contrition, or imposed by the government (not in civil trial). I also wouldn’t be surprised if the reason people gave for not liking this fine corresponded exactly with your 2nd point: this doesn’t seem steep enough to stop them from engaging in the misbehavior again.

Bruno Nicoletti Apr 20, 2023

@surcomplicated @Popehat Are we going to see a push for “free speech” as a consequence of this. Meaning an attempt to water down US libel laws?

SatelliteOfLove Apr 20, 2023

@surcomplicated @Popehat

Yup. It was in the discovery; they stop, the watching stops...and this is now known with proof.

Tofu Golem Apr 20, 2023

@surcomplicated @Popehat
If the trial stayed in the news for weeks, it would have been harder for conservatives to deny that the safe-space media lies to them.

This makes it easier, and from what I hear, Rupert has enough money to brush off nearly a billion dollar settlement.