@Augustus1497 Okay, I mean if Russia was creeping towards the US under the same guise, I think they'd react in some form another, but whether or not it would be as extreme I'm doubtful of.

Fact is, Russian propaganda is obvious whereas Western media will have you believe that Ukraine and their soldiers are worth dying for X reasons while the intentions the US (And thereby NATO) has is Y.

Here's the thing. Ukraine has been begging for membership and the US dangled that very thing by sending US taxpayer funded weapons to weaken an adversary, but Ukraine was really hoping for membership to NATO all along.

All along those that have been paying attention and seeing through both Russia's and the West's propaganda can see that NATO membership was used as a pawn with the death of Ukraine soldiers to weaken Russia, only to add Finland and potentially Sweden into the NATO "defensive" club.

Using Ukraine bodies to add two other members doesn't sound very "defensive" to me.

The more everyone keeps focusing on how bad Russia is the more you're going to truly be advocating for the death of those you're actually in support of.

@Augustus1497

You obviously can't seem to understand that not believing in Western propaganda doesn't equal believing in Russia's either.

I'm sorry you believe it can only be one way or another. If that's your true belief, then please move along.

Otherwise, you'd understand that Ukraine DID apply. And have been opposed, by the United States...

https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ft.com%2Fcontent%2Fc37ed22d-e0e4-4b03-972e-c56af8a36d2e

@Augustus1497 This has been a concern since the cold war ended, and didn't begin with Putin. While he may be using it to be aggressive and act recklessly, why provoke someone with nuclear weapons at all? Is a world war the goal here, because you can claim NATO is defensive all you want until it's being seen as a pawn at the expense of Ukrainian lives and provoking a nuclear war.

Russia hasn't seen NATO expansion as acceptable since the cold war ended, Putin or not.

If the Ukranian people want away from Russia's influence, then they should advocate for peace talks. Because it appears they aren't allowed to join NATO while they're having an active conflict.

You can point fingers at Putin all day long, that isn't going to create peace, and countless people will continue to die because peace isn't even an effort being made.

Anyways, here's what was said back in 1997, before Putin.

"We believe that the eastward expansion of NATO is a mistake and a serious one at that," Boris Yeltsin, Russia's first post-Soviet president, told reporters at a 1997 news conference with US President Bill Clinton in Helsinki, where the two signed a statement on arms control. "

https://www.dw.com/en/nato-why-russia-has-a-problem-with-its-eastward-expansion/a-60891681

@Augustus1497 There was always doubt about this agreement. No matter how you looked at it, Russia was persistent on keeping NATO away from their borders but understood that some expansion would happen. Whether or not Putin is using it to be aggressive, it could be argued that any other Russian leader would be up in arms as well, though as is said this could be Putin's own doing. Either way, I feel as though NATO's goal was always to expand, as was cautioned in 1997. After all, Russia has never really not been seen as an adversary, even after the cold war.

So while these agreements as you have said were essentially nullified by Putin, I still don't see how the West provoking him, nor Ukraine not trying for peace talks, is gonna save any more Ukrainian lives or prevent future nuclear wars.

It's not smart to push a madman to his limits, wouldn't you agree?

@Augustus1497
By allowing this to continue, you're only going to allow it to escalate. Nothing good comes from this. We're already back to square one...

I understand in theory that you shouldn't let anyone bully you into submission, but the continuation of this is only going to end up causing more deaths than are truly necessary.

I advocate for peace, whereas some would rather allow more to die because someone can't change their dirty diaper and had a temper tantrum (Obviously way more than that but you get the point).

The hateful war mentality continues with no signs or attempt of saving humanity in sight...