Chaotic InsanityApr 6, 2023

Please read the comments to this before you post the same things over and over. Thanks.

Do you remember how the United States reacted when Cuba held nukes for Russia? Yeah me too.

Has NATO stopped dangling the "join NATO" prize above Ukraine's head yet? Not like they've been dying lately for the US's interests or anything.

Oh what's that? Finland you say? Oh.. Right... Thanks Ukraine, here you go Finland! 🥴

(Waits to be called an anti-war idiot again and all the claims NATO is "defensive" while members are creeping towards Russia provoking potential further conflicts)

You either want peace and are willing to make talks for it (Looking at you Ukraine, cause we know Russia won't), or you're willing to sacrifice human lives for X reason(s).

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/finland-set-join-nato-historic-shift-while-sweden-waits-2023-04-04/

#Nato
#Ukraine
#Russia
#USPol

Finland joins NATO in historic shift, Russia threatens 'counter-measures'

Finland formally joined NATO on Tuesday, its flag unfurling outside the military bloc's Brussels headquarters, in a historic policy shift brought on by Russia's invasion of Ukraine that drew a threat from Moscow of "counter-measures."

Reuters
Show threadRoy JenningsApr 6, 2023
@MikeTheComrade Putin, as well as invading other countries, brutalises his own people, assassinates his enemies all over the world, or just throws them in jail to rot and I t’s all because of NATO 😂. Ridiculous!
Show threadChaotic InsanityApr 6, 2023

@Augustus1497 Okay, I mean if Russia was creeping towards the US under the same guise, I think they'd react in some form another, but whether or not it would be as extreme I'm doubtful of.

Fact is, Russian propaganda is obvious whereas Western media will have you believe that Ukraine and their soldiers are worth dying for X reasons while the intentions the US (And thereby NATO) has is Y.

Here's the thing. Ukraine has been begging for membership and the US dangled that very thing by sending US taxpayer funded weapons to weaken an adversary, but Ukraine was really hoping for membership to NATO all along.

All along those that have been paying attention and seeing through both Russia's and the West's propaganda can see that NATO membership was used as a pawn with the death of Ukraine soldiers to weaken Russia, only to add Finland and potentially Sweden into the NATO "defensive" club.

Using Ukraine bodies to add two other members doesn't sound very "defensive" to me.

The more everyone keeps focusing on how bad Russia is the more you're going to truly be advocating for the death of those you're actually in support of.

Show threadRoy JenningsApr 6, 2023
@MikeTheComrade You’re saying that Russia’s invasions means that NATO will gain two new members at the expense of Ukrainian lives. It could also be construed that Putin is helping NATO expand by invading neighbouring countries. Ukraine wanted to join NATO because it had Russian puppet presidents controlling it. The people of Ukraine wanted a closer link with Europe not Russia. NATO doesn’t force countries to become members, they apply. Not sure why you support Putin’s narrative.
Show threadChaotic InsanityApr 6, 2023

@Augustus1497

You obviously can't seem to understand that not believing in Western propaganda doesn't equal believing in Russia's either.

I'm sorry you believe it can only be one way or another. If that's your true belief, then please move along.

Otherwise, you'd understand that Ukraine DID apply. And have been opposed, by the United States...

https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ft.com%2Fcontent%2Fc37ed22d-e0e4-4b03-972e-c56af8a36d2e

12ft |

Show threadRoy JenningsApr 6, 2023
@MikeTheComrade I notice you ignored my comment that Ukrainian people wanted to peel away from Russia’s influence. Vicktor Yanokovich (a Russian puppet) postponed Ukraine’s application in 2010. The illegal invasion of Crimea by Russia made the Ukrainian government look to join NATO in 2019. So Russia’s undue pressure is forcing more potential membership. There seems to be no evidence that Putin’s narrative about NATO is anything other than an excuse to act recklessly.
Show threadChaotic InsanityApr 6, 2023

@Augustus1497 This has been a concern since the cold war ended, and didn't begin with Putin. While he may be using it to be aggressive and act recklessly, why provoke someone with nuclear weapons at all? Is a world war the goal here, because you can claim NATO is defensive all you want until it's being seen as a pawn at the expense of Ukrainian lives and provoking a nuclear war.

Russia hasn't seen NATO expansion as acceptable since the cold war ended, Putin or not.

If the Ukranian people want away from Russia's influence, then they should advocate for peace talks. Because it appears they aren't allowed to join NATO while they're having an active conflict.

You can point fingers at Putin all day long, that isn't going to create peace, and countless people will continue to die because peace isn't even an effort being made.

Anyways, here's what was said back in 1997, before Putin.

"We believe that the eastward expansion of NATO is a mistake and a serious one at that," Boris Yeltsin, Russia's first post-Soviet president, told reporters at a 1997 news conference with US President Bill Clinton in Helsinki, where the two signed a statement on arms control. "

https://www.dw.com/en/nato-why-russia-has-a-problem-with-its-eastward-expansion/a-60891681

NATO: Why Russia has a problem with its eastward expansion

After its Soviet enemy crumbled, NATO kept growing. Whether that helped ensure peace or constitutes a threat is still debated today — and plays into Russian actions towards Ukraine.

Deutsche Welle
Show threadRoy JenningsApr 6, 2023
@MikeTheComrade “In 1994, Russia joined the Partnership for Peace program, and on 27 May 1997, the NATO–Russia Founding Act (NRFA) was signed at a NATO Summit in Paris, France, enabling the creation of the NATO–Russia Permanent Joint Council (NRPJC). Through the early part of 2010s NATO and Russia signed several additional agreements on cooperation.” (Wikipedia: NATO–Russia relations).
Russia was close to NATO once but Putin not NATO changed all that!
Show threadChaotic Insanity

@Augustus1497 There was always doubt about this agreement. No matter how you looked at it, Russia was persistent on keeping NATO away from their borders but understood that some expansion would happen. Whether or not Putin is using it to be aggressive, it could be argued that any other Russian leader would be up in arms as well, though as is said this could be Putin's own doing. Either way, I feel as though NATO's goal was always to expand, as was cautioned in 1997. After all, Russia has never really not been seen as an adversary, even after the cold war.

So while these agreements as you have said were essentially nullified by Putin, I still don't see how the West provoking him, nor Ukraine not trying for peace talks, is gonna save any more Ukrainian lives or prevent future nuclear wars.

It's not smart to push a madman to his limits, wouldn't you agree?

Apr 6, 2023 at 10:14pmWeb
Show threadRoy JenningsApr 6, 2023
@MikeTheComrade Yes, i agree that a 3rd world war is not wanted, obviously. But no country is going to be allowed to bully it’s way into any country it choses just because it has Nuclear war heads. The onus is on the aggressor not to invade, as we both now agree Russia went from potential friend to hostile enemy because of Putin’s reversion to a soviet style dictatorship. Ergo, it’s more to do with Putin’s ambitions than his NATO narrative.
Show threadChaotic InsanityApr 6, 2023

@Augustus1497
By allowing this to continue, you're only going to allow it to escalate. Nothing good comes from this. We're already back to square one...

I understand in theory that you shouldn't let anyone bully you into submission, but the continuation of this is only going to end up causing more deaths than are truly necessary.

I advocate for peace, whereas some would rather allow more to die because someone can't change their dirty diaper and had a temper tantrum (Obviously way more than that but you get the point).

The hateful war mentality continues with no signs or attempt of saving humanity in sight...

Show threadRoy JenningsApr 6, 2023
@MikeTheComrade I agree with your honest sentiments about war and death of innocents. I just feel Ukraine, like Findland and Sweden should be able to democratically go there own way, without their neighbours telling them that what to do. Belarus now has an deeply unpopular puppet ruler because of Russian influence and interference. I know arguments are double sided but I would find it hard to put forward Putin’s excuses as valid, but you seem to concur with him.
Show threadChaotic InsanityApr 6, 2023

TL;DR - War is bad.

I've said this before a while back, but I truly believe NATO and its allies are taking advantage of an already on-going situation between Ukraine and Russia, with Ukraine having more to lose.

The US has nearly it's entire history of hate and aggression (Talk for another time), so I doubt the validity of anything NATO related as much as I do Russian related.

In the end peace is my goal. I know it's unrealistic to say "Peace no matter the cost", so I am forced to say "Look, the only way I can see peace going forward is between Ukraine and Russia" but with NATO doing NATO things, I'm afraid that's made things go too far and giving the madman in Russia an excuse to avoid peace talks. In the end guess who TRULY loses? Peace in Ukraine and if it continues, potentially farther than that...