HeavenlyPossumTaxation is theft.
Rents are a form of tax.
Voron@HeavenlyPossum if taxation is theft, then no roads for anyone š¤·āāļø
Iām not sure why weād need taxes to fund roads, since roads existed before taxes.
@HeavenlyPossum really? You would have to go all the way back before feudal times š¤ no even further, so yeah there were tracks made by cart wheels that were called roads before taxes, those awesome Roman roads were even paid for by taxes
- Roads predate states. States are much older than either the Roman state or the medieval period. We donāt need taxes to have roads.
- States donāt tax to fund spending.
- Coercion is bad. If people have to be coerced into doing something, itās probably not worth doing. If it is worth doing, then people will probably do it without being coerced.
- The usefulness of coercion to you is not a good justification for coercion.
@HeavenlyPossum yup dirt tracks predate states, not a fan of drive on dirt tracks
āPeople living thousands of years ago didnāt have asphaltā is not a particularly good argument for the state.
@HeavenlyPossum well, pragmatism never works with idealists
The observation that people in nonstate societies without taxes still have roads is empirical, not idealist.
@HeavenlyPossum ok show me a place today without any taxation with roads that are functional for my Honda Fit
Not sure if your dork car can handle roads in places like Chiapas, but, again, your argument seems to boil down to āmen with guns should extract resources at gunpoint to fund amenities for me and my dork carā which still isnāt compelling.
@HeavenlyPossum not compelling āto youā, changing societies requires something be compelling to a fairly large number of people
So to be clear, youāre acknowledging that youāre happy men with guns coercively extract resources and compel labor so you can comfortably drive your dork car around?
@HeavenlyPossum To be clear you are offering no viable solution other than going back to living in huts and living as hunter gathers.
Give me a viable alternative
Give me a viable alternative
Can you identify where Iāve said that?
@HeavenlyPossum can you identify where I have said the stuff about extracting money with guns?
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Thatās your interpretation so I gave you mine, fair is fair.
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Like I said give me your viable alternative, you havenāt so I have to fill in the blanks š¤·āāļø
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Thatās your interpretation so I gave you mine, fair is fair.
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Like I said give me your viable alternative, you havenāt so I have to fill in the blanks š¤·āāļø
What do you think taxes are? How do you think the state compels people to pay taxes? Does the state threaten to, say, tickle you if you donāt pay your taxes? Or maybe something a little harsher?
My alternative is āpeople freely and voluntarily engaging in cooperative effort,ā but a critical identification of taxes and rents as theft does not rely on presenting an alternative.
@HeavenlyPossum thats an ambiguous theory, you like empirical stuff right?
Give me a functional example
Give me a functional example
Chiapas, Zomia, Tristan da Cunha, any time you and your mates get together and buy each other a round.
@HeavenlyPossum are you talking modern current Chiapas
@voron āChiapasā is a synecdoche for the parts of the state that were liberated by the Zapatistas
@HeavenlyPossum how were the Zapatistas funded? How are those ares funded? Is there a firewall between the funding the Zapatistas get/got is there a firewall between all external funding & resources?
@HeavenlyPossum Iāll look into it Btw
Oh whew I was really worried there for a sec
@HeavenlyPossum because there are taxes in Chiapas right now https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Municipalities_of_Chiapas
@HeavenlyPossum I have a feeling you donāt have one, and thatās ok
@HeavenlyPossum that model works greatā¦for hunter gatherers living in huts š¤·āāļø
Not sure why youāre so reluctant to answer the question, or why you think so little of people that you canāt imagine them engaging in voluntary cooperation.
@HeavenlyPossum imagination is great I can imagine it just fine and I like doing so I also like imagining dragons š
So to you, people engaged in voluntary cooperation is as fantastical as dragons?
Mr. MustacheAfter watching people for the last 20 years or so, and studying much more of history, I would say emphatically that voluntary empathy/co-operation is about as realistic as dragons for most people.
The vast majority of modern governments are deeply broken, to the point that I do not believe that they can be fixed. That doesn't mean that some sort of more equitable system won't need to be built.
My personal ideal is a democratic federation very similar to the Fediverse. Some baseline stuff (like infrastructure, education, and Healthcare) helps EVERYONE so everyone can help fund it. Otherwise the groups sort themselves out and leaving for another area should be easy and cheap.
Strong centralized power is ALWAYS bad but co-operation for the common good sometimes requires co-operation instead of requesting.
@HeavenlyPossum your argument seems to be live in a hut and work by consensus as hunter gatherers which is not compelling to very many people today
Is it your understanding that the people of Chiapas live in huts as hunter gatherers?
In any case, no, thatās not my argument, but Iām starting to wonder which part of āanarchist communistā you misunderstood when you decided to follow me.
@HeavenlyPossum btw Iām enjoying the conversation I really like trying to find alternatives to our current system
@HeavenlyPossum take it easy true idealists are rare and valuable they are the heart of humanity