Mastodawn

Carlos Lisboa Mar 4, 2023

Religions are not organizations where people learn to be moral. They are in-groups where people are taught to focus on the immorality of out-groups, thereby making themselves feel superior.

As an example, I was in my office yesterday and two lawyers (and one lawyer’s) son (all catholics) were shooting the shit when conversation turned to the “con” that is homeless people who just “don’t want to work” b/c it’s so “easy” to beg on the street, and how they’re not “really” poor, it’s all just a scam.

All our doors were open b/c no clients were around — it was the end of the day. And so I overheard the entire conversation. I stuck my nose in the office, leaned against the door, shook my head and said “Jesus is so disappointed in all of you right now. I’m pretty sure his gospel taught charity for the poor, not resentment.”

Two of them immediately blushed and shut up. One lawyer erupted. “But they’re not POOR! They’re hypocrites!” He exclaimed. To which I replied, “I thought that was god’s to judge.” He stormed off and slammed the door to his office.

It’s not about god, or morals. It’s about feeling powerful among an in-group while persecuting an out-group. It’s sick.

Corvid Crone Mar 4, 2023

@LeftistLawyer but the other two blushed and shut up. You reminded them of their supposed values and they stopped. Perhaps, they will remember and apply this in the future. Perhaps they won't. But for a moment, they were cognizant of how their words were in contradiction with their faith.

Leftist Lawyer Mar 4, 2023

@CorvidCrone And generally, the one lawyer and his son are good people. The other is an insecure monster. But that’s my point when you get in groups together. They’re so liable to falling into group think and not questioning the pronouncements of one another. Rather, they reinforce evil because to question in-group behavior, and be cast out as result is the ultimate sin.

Now @christinkallama@hcommons Mar 6, 2023

@LeftistLawyer @CorvidCrone

Absolutely a problem with all types of in-groups. And many religious communities and institutions are based on and cultivate in-group/out-group dynamics under the guise of morality. Religious people and communities don't always operate that way, of course, as your note about Jesus so nicely illustrates.

Mickrob9777 Mar 4, 2023

Teaching to hate the other tightens the circle of the “righteous”, as long as they tow the party line they belong. For whatever reason *belonging* for some is paramount, everything else is secondary

🍸Pooka🥕Boo🍸Mar 4, 2023

The loneliest feeling in the world.. 😂🤣
https://youtu.be/upn9wklYGEI

"Inherit The Wind" the loneliest feeling in the world...

YouTube

Easter Benny 🐇🥚Mar 4, 2023

@LeftistLawyer The best Christians I know are all atheists.

Darwin Woodka Mar 4, 2023

@LeftistLawyer I'm really disgusted by the people who think homelessness is a choice. It's a combination of so many factors but none of those factors really amounts to anything but being too poor to afford a place to live. Drug addiction, mental illness, pure poverty, whatever the reason, they aren't out to scam anyone.

Arena Cops 🇺🇦✌Mar 4, 2023

@darwinwoodka @LeftistLawyer Those, who cynically say homelessness were a choice are only admitted to enter a true & faithful church's services, because Jesus said "Love your enemies".
While that may doubtlessly be disputable (thinking of enemies like Hitler's Nazis & other mass-murderers like Stalin, Pol Pot, Putin...)

#SaveLives #LoveYourNeighbor #Care #StrongerTogether

Karl Mar 5, 2023

@darwinwoodka who said it’s a choice??

WesDym Mar 5, 2023

@karl There's a couple versions of this belief. The more common is that people are homeless because of choices they make, and would not be if they made different ones.

Most people who say that don't understand the harsh economic factors involved and how hard it is to escape homelessness, but some of them subscribe to the Just World Hypothesis, that everyone gets what they 'deserve'.

A different belief some people have is that some people really WANT to be homeless, which is almost never true.

Karl Mar 5, 2023

@wesdym I would suspect the vast majority need mental health care. I volunteered, making meals for the homeless handed out supplies during the pandemic, and I can tell you firsthand sadly, at least half of the folks I interacted with needed mental health assistance as much as anything.

WesDym Mar 5, 2023

@karl I've been homeless myself, and it's my belief that while mental illness can lead to homelessness, the converse is also true. Homelessness is a traumatic experience for many (maybe most) people, and especially over time probably degrades many people's mental function. Just surviving is a lot of work, and as a nonstop activity that's going to wear people down a lot.

We should just house people for starters, give them some functional stability to start with, and then sort out the rest later.

Karl Mar 5, 2023

@wesdym could not agree more. It’s chicken and egg. Glad to see you seem to be back on your feet. Anything I may be able to do to help you continue to grow and flourish, just ask.

WesDym Mar 5, 2023

@darwinwoodka What I find appalling is that by the numbers, homelessness is affordably solvable. We as a society CHOOSE not to solve it, and I find that shameful.

Doug Kappeler Mar 4, 2023

@LeftistLawyer
Toot of the day!!

CJ Paloma Mar 4, 2023

@LeftistLawyer and belonging to an in-group is also a point of privilege that people have among their other identities. I'm working on understanding typical (US) dynamics that happen in the intersection between defensiveness and our points of privilege...dunno if anyone's noticed, but we all** tend towards defensiveness when our less conscious points of privilege are called out.

It's a dynamic that is incredibly common, intuitively grasped once pointed out, incredibly important in holding us back from creating the kinds of worlds most of us want, and STILL so very understudied, we barely have words for it.

**and yes I do mean we all tend towards this, even those of us who do not generally lean towards authoritarian thinking.

Pēteris Krišjānis Mar 4, 2023

@LeftistLawyer it's human. We - as a group or group we identify with - want all resources, all the time. We will justify anything, because that's how our instincts are trained for. If we don't challenge the way we understand them, we will fail.

Zeke Mar 4, 2023

@LeftistLawyer differentiating between members of the in- and out-groups is part and parcel of enforcing moral behavior. Just look at the OP for an example.

Zeke Mar 4, 2023

@LeftistLawyer what is the point of sharing this vignette? Demonstrating ingroup bonafides. There's nothing special or particular about religion and people find substitutes everywhere.

Zeke Mar 4, 2023

@LeftistLawyer what is the point of posting that you're blocking me, buddy? Again: virtue signaling.

Michelle Markel Mar 4, 2023

@LeftistLawyer Lots of people have this attitude, whether they're church-going or not. I've spoken to some. They say the homeless are making a choice, they don't want to work, they . just want to party. I wonder if the "housed" consider what it's like to actually live on the streets.

Mickrob9777 Mar 4, 2023

@mgmarkel @LeftistLawyer
I was driving with a friend through Portland Or (huge homeless population) when my friend started complaining about how the homeless leave so much trash. These people have nothing, no car, no home, no food, no water, no security, no respect, no trash cans and instead of focusing on *their* trials the focus was on how their unsightly trash effected my friends view.

I would say no, people don’t realize much outside their comfort zone

Lisa FW Mar 4, 2023

@Mickrob9777 @mgmarkel @LeftistLawyer I was riding my bike with a christian minister & he said basically the same thing when we passed a group of homeless folks. Because I am a whimp, I could only say under my breath "yes, they should take more pride in their homelessness". I was appalled and will work on being more outspoken against these types of statements.

Mickrob9777 Mar 4, 2023

@lisafw @mgmarkel @LeftistLawyer

We all need to do better, speaking up against those in power is hard, especially as many have relied on their ruthlessness to attain their position. Speaking up for those less fortunate should be taught all through school. Unfortunately we are in a time where instead of lifting those in need we demonize their “laziness”. The world seems to have lost its way :(

Lisa FW Mar 4, 2023

@Mickrob9777 @mgmarkel @LeftistLawyer yes, totally agree 😞

Scott Knowles Mar 4, 2023

@LeftistLawyer Religious leaders know rules.
1. Teach their followers they are the God chosen ones and ones Jesus saves.
2. Teach everyone else is their enemy.
3. Teach their interpretation of Bible and Jesus' teachings is only one.
4. Teach power is righteous.
5. Teach they're victims of hate by others.
6. Teach their goal is domination of what is right and true.
7. Teach giving money to leaders buys redemption.

Mx. Luna Corbden 🐸Mar 4, 2023

@LeftistLawyer @JaniceSelbie It reminds me when I was a teen and saw a woman with a sign McDonalds. I bought her a burger and fries. Then I told that story in Sunday school, and everyone, including the teacher, sat there and told me I’d been duped. Yep, what a sucker I was giving food to someone. That never sat right with me.

Janice Selbie Mar 4, 2023

@corbden @LeftistLawyer Very sad.

Mx. Luna Corbden 🐸Mar 4, 2023

@LeftistLawyer @JaniceSelbie Since this is getting a little traction I’ll mention that this was Mormon church, their marketing to the contrary notwithstanding.

➡ [email protected]Mar 4, 2023

@corbden @LeftistLawyer @JaniceSelbie Do Mormons still talk about the loaves and fishes? When I read this I just think of all the scammers who were following Jesus just for the free food. /s

Mx. Luna Corbden 🐸Mar 4, 2023

@smitten @LeftistLawyer @JaniceSelbie Yeah the dissonance I experience even to this day from that story are the echoes of all the lessons, stories, scriptures, talks by leaders and prophets, about kindness and examples of kind acts. Then I do it and suddenly helping people is a scam.

benda Mar 4, 2023

@LeftistLawyer anyone who thinks panhandling is easier than a job with comparable returns must be stupid not to do it themselves, no? half witted argument that can be torn apart in a hundred different ways.

Lensman Mar 4, 2023

@LeftistLawyer I agree with what you say, unfortunately when asked who they identify with in the parable of the good Samaritan and people like that will say that they are the Samaritan when in reality they are the religious person who passed by on the other side, They are hypocrites and Jesus was not fond of hypocrites. Those same people cherry pick the Bible to serve their own prejudices and that is plain evil because of the harm they do and just like sociopaths they don't care.

Bruce Elrick Mar 4, 2023

@LeftistLawyer Your post reminds me of this comment by Frank Wilhoit on Crooked Timber: https://crookedtimber.org/2018/03/21/liberals-against-progressives/#comment-729288

The travesty of liberalism — Crooked Timber

Bruce Elrick Mar 4, 2023

@LeftistLawyer The real Frank Wilhoit, the composer: https://slate.com/business/2022/06/wilhoits-law-conservatives-frank-wilhoit.html

The Pithiest Critique of Modern Conservatism Keeps Getting Credited to the Wrong Man

“Wilhoit’s Law” was coined by a different Frank Wilhoit.

Slate

Ω 🌍 Gus Posey Mar 5, 2023

@LeftistLawyer Religion is to humanity what killing someone while drunk driving is to the individual.

unmellow Mar 5, 2023

@LeftistLawyer I am not gonna pretend like asshole Christians are the exception not the rule as I really can't prove that, but I do want to point out my mother,
She is Someone who prides herself on calling out exactly this kinda bullshit. (Don't want to dox her with examples) we both believe welfare and government intervention are necessary, people should be allowed to practice their culture, etc.

I get so frustrated with these degenerates that I do sometimes end up questioning my faith.

Then I remember being taught God loves all his children, and decided that I refuse to believe that their interpretation of holiness is correct.

How is beating people to death love?

Religion when done right can serve to bring together communities and unite them to a cause, just need to be very careful not to let scumbags corrupt it.

Mickrob9777 Mar 5, 2023

@unmellow @LeftistLawyer

Food for thought…

Is faith necessary for decency to flourish? It would seem if we teach goodness, honesty and compassion regardless of any specific religion, we would better off as the basic premise of most religions is “mine is better than yours”. Without that constant division would we not be a more unified community? Would the money that pours into religious coffers not be better spent directly uplifting the needy?

HLGEM Mar 5, 2023

@LeftistLawyer Over 2000 references in the Bible about helping the poor. 0 direct references to abortion.

Jo 🌈💜💕🏳️‍🌈Mar 5, 2023

@LeftistLawyer preach. 💜

Malinux Mar 5, 2023

@LeftistLawyer I had a similar conversation online. That Christian didn't listen to me, but then a different Christian entered and said he distributes food and sanitation products to homeless people.

The first challenged him by asking "okay, so I can just get that from you for free, and save myself some money", so the second replied with "yes, if you ask for my help, I will come to your house with food, wet wipes and anything else you need".

I think he got across the point in a way an atheist never could.

Madison Motta Mar 5, 2023

@LeftistLawyer I'm glad at least two of them realized they were wrong after you called them out. Disappointing that they participated in this behavior though.

@Lee_in_Iowa Mar 6, 2023

@LeftistLawyer Next take them to a homeless shelter for a few hours and have them chat with the people there—and then tell you which of the people they would hire and for what position. (So many homeless people are broken in some way and our cruel culture literally leaves them out in the cold.)

Leftist Lawyer Mar 6, 2023

@Lee_in_Iowa It’s like the Christian’s *know* they’re ultra-privileged, but rather than actually follow Christ’s teachings and spread charity to the poor, they make up rationalizations as to why the poor deserve their lot.

Which, has the obvious added benefit of keeping their bank accounts flush. They think because they tithe, they make the world a better place, instead of just making their church more powerful.

What I don’t think 90% of Christendom realizes is just how deeply wedded the “prosperity gospel” and capitalism have become. To an outsider they reek of Mammon’s sinful stench. But, as insiders, they seem largely nose-blind.

Graydon Mar 6, 2023

@LeftistLawyer @Lee_in_Iowa The Gospels say to surrender all power to God.

That's not what causes human institutions to be copied into the future, and so we do not get humane institutions, we get those driven by the simplest replicable idea that reliably confers power.

(At least one person in holy orders has been burned at the stake for complaining that the ten commandments had been replaced with one commandment, "Bring hither the money". )

Baylus C. Brooks Mar 6, 2023

@LeftistLawyer Christofascism.

Pankhurst2 Mar 6, 2023

@LeftistLawyer
Thanks for speaking up.

@LeftistLawyer Interesting take on begging. Perhaps you should have reminded them of their church collection plate. The church isn't poor either, but they still ask for donations.

Lauren Bajek Mar 6, 2023

@LeftistLawyer this is a perfectly fine anecdote about Christianity, but many (most?) other religions are very unlike Christianity, so I question the generalization to all religion

bird brain human body 🌏 🇵🇸Mar 7, 2023

@laurenbajek @LeftistLawyer

Let's narrow it down to organized religion, then.

Islam is the dominant religion in Malaysia, and you'd probably hear some similar prejudicial spew from self-proclaimed devoted (read: conservative or fundamentalist) Muslims where I live.
The difference is: the rhetoric might be more racist than classist.

Mike Fraser Mar 7, 2023

@laurenbajek @LeftistLawyer Actually it is not a perfectly fine anecdote for Christianity. There are a thousand different flavours of Christianity. Unfortunately as with Islam the extremists get all the attention. It's a generalization and a not particularly clever one.

Jens Hannemann Mar 6, 2023

@LeftistLawyer That reminds me of this little gem:

https://cheezburger.com/8820997/religious-missionary-called-out-for-being-part-of-the-churchs-pain-reward-cycle-ritual

Religious Missionary Called Out For Being Part Of The Church's Pain Reward Cycle Ritual

Religious Missionary Called Out For Being Part Of The Church's Pain Reward Cycle Ritual - The internet has generated a huge amount of laughs from cats and FAILS. And we all out of cats.

Cheezburger

WndlB Mar 6, 2023

@LeftistLawyer I have witnessed the people begging at stoplights being dropped off in an unmarked company-type van that seats about 12.

jsj Mar 6, 2023

@LeftistLawyer Thanks for sharing this. It's fascinating how the mind games are revealed in their conversation. They clearly *know* Jesus taught charity for the poor, so to justify their opinions they redefine poor people as faking it. They're not "poor." They're "lazy." They're "hypocrites."

It's just another version of taking away a person's humanity so one can feel justified treating them inhumanely.

Laurence Wolfe Mar 6, 2023

@LeftistLawyer all religions are cults… imho

MadMarie Mar 6, 2023

@laurencewolfe @LeftistLawyer

I would go further on this. All institutions are cults. Be it church, school, government, the internal dynamics of group culture breed hypocrisy, prejudice and 'us vs them' attitudes. There are lots of good Christians just as there are lots of dedicated politicians and teachers. But under the pressure of the group, they often lose their way.

Update: I left out corporations in that list. The biggest cult of all.

throAU Mar 6, 2023

@LeftistLawyer they’re also racketeering. Shaking down their members for “donations” in order for protection from the almighty. Tax free