Fen C
Poll: Should we all have #Digital_ID (assuming it can be done 100% securely)?

(We mostly all already have a #National_Insurance number...)

(Please boost for wider poll.)
Yes. ✅
41.4%
No. ❌
58.6%
Poll ended at .
Feb 27, 2023 at 12:26amWeb
Show threadSteve RootFeb 27, 2023
@fencoul I don't understand the question, how is a digital id different from, say, NI number other than the medium (do you still have the ni credit card or get NI number from a payslip?).
I think I'm unsure as to how the ID relates to authentication, because I don't think of any I'd number as secure.
Show threadLassielmrFeb 27, 2023
@Sroot @fencoul eIDs, at least the one’s issued across E.U. member states are now biometric including finger prints, photograph and sample signature as well as other personal information. Biometric residence premits issued in the U.K. include the above plus additional information pertaining to immigration status and services (eg NHS) eligibility. If the holder already has a NI number it is also included in the card.
Show threadSteve RootFeb 27, 2023
@lassielmr @fencoul Thanks, that makes more sense to me now. DigitalID here equals a Biometric ID factor.
I think I could argue some people already have biometric ID in the UK (eg: Fingerprints in a police database, or phone unlock by touch).
Show threadLassielmrFeb 27, 2023
@fencoul everyone in the U.K. who was born here or is registered to use the NHS already has a unique identifier. It’s called a CHI in Scotland, H&C in NI and in England & Wales a NHS number
Show threadTom RitchfordFeb 27, 2023

@fencoul My theory is that the reason for the result is that no one believes it can be done 100% securely.

I voted yes. I even believe it could be done securely. I don't however trust most of the world's governments to do it.

However, if the EU did it, and they went out of their way to be transparent, then I would trust them.

Certainly, the current situation is not sustainable.

Show threadCharlie StrossFeb 27, 2023

@fencoul I voted "no" because I remember the ghastly mess that was the National Identity Register proposed by the Home Office under Tony Blair (about the ONLY good thing David Cameron did on gaining office was to kill it with fire). And I also remember my father (born in 1924) telling stories of how the wartime mandatory ID card was misused by the police/authorities to harass people, leading to an earlier civil rights campaign (in the 1950s).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NO2ID

NO2ID - Wikipedia

Show threadCharlie StrossFeb 27, 2023

@fencoul My opposition is not about whether it can be done securely; it's because you didn't ask whether it can be done *fairly*.

(That is: without it being turned into a tool of oppression. Which is pretty much guaranteed to happen within milliseconds under every Home Secretary we've had since Roy Jenkins …)

Show threadFen CFeb 27, 2023

@cstross

👆 How come that doesn't happen with #NI & #NHS numbers then?

Show threadCharlie StrossFeb 27, 2023
@fencoul Because they're not Home Office projects. (Anything the Home Office touches instantly turns to shit, or was designed to be horrible and opporessive from the start. The Home Office is toxic and needs to be abolished.)
Show threadFen CFeb 27, 2023

@cstross

👆 It'll happen. Whether we like it or not. Imagine if the private sector got hold of de-facto #Digital_IDs!

"Scan your #AaronBanksCard or #ElonMuskCard now, whichever one you have."

Show threadCharlie StrossFeb 27, 2023
@fencoul That would be your Facebook/Twitter/Google login name, right?
Show threadHighlandLawyerFeb 27, 2023

@fencoul @cstross NI numbers have very limited data attached to them, can't be used as ID, & on the rare ocassions they cock up still cause major problems to those concerned.
NHS numbers, while having some very personal data attached, are siloed across a number of systems with robust protections* regarding transfer, & also can't be used as general ID.
Neither of them are Home Office data surveillance mechanisms.

*May no longer fully apply to NHS England

Show threadMax : Max MaxFeb 27, 2023

@HighlandLawyer @fencoul @cstross exactly, maybe 10% of implement something like an NI or NHS number is the technical side of how to do it - the other 90% is the reams and reams of policy, legality and enforcement that supports it.

Something that our "oven ready" government have historically had a bit of trouble with.

Show threadTom RitchfordFeb 27, 2023

@cstross @fencoul

Strong ID is inevitable, so we, the people, need to get ahead of this.

We need a Digital ID Bill of Rights:

Untrackability: verify identity while getting very little to track someone on.

Qualified anonymity: criminals can be unmasked; you can ban an offensive person entirely but they keep anonymity.

Erasability: a completely restart must be possible.

The first and third can be done with strong crypto; the second needs a trusted central authority that keeps secrets.

Show threadCharlie StrossFeb 27, 2023

@TomSwirly @fencoul "We need a Digital ID Bill of Rights"

—Good luck getting that under the Tories (hint: the project would be overseen by the Home Office, so we're looking at the most depraved authoritarian bigot they can find, currently Suleia Braverman).

And good luck hoping for it under Labour led by Keir Starmer, a former Director of Public Prosecutions who is an instinctive authoritarian and went mediaeval on anyone the police collared in 2011 after the riots.

Show threadPeter Prevos 💧🎓📊🇳🇱🇦🇺Feb 27, 2023
@fencoul I used to think that it would be necessary to have an ID to tame the craziness on social media. However, Mastodon shows that we can have civilised social media
Show threadFen CFeb 27, 2023

@danderzei

👆 Mmm...time will tell...

Show threadSteven HeywoodFeb 27, 2023
@fencoul
I voted No because there are already national digital IDs for specific purposes and the only reason for having an all-embracing digital ID is to allow somebody to make an eye-watering amount of money out of yet another badly managed Home Office IT project with infinitely changing specifications and unmanaged budget with the ultimate goal of having another Kafkaesque HO construct that will doubtless "accidentally" strip the citizenship from one or other oppressed group.
Show threadTim Ward ⭐🇪🇺🔶 #FBPEFeb 27, 2023
@fencoul I don't buy the assumption, so I won't be voting as the poll isn't relevant to real life.
Show thread(moved)Galbinus Caeli 🌯Feb 27, 2023
@fencoul can it be done without disadvantaging the poor or disabled?
Show threadFen CFeb 27, 2023

@SkipHuffman

👆 See: Estonia.

Show thread_keith_smith_Feb 27, 2023

@fencoul I really struggle to answer this with a simple yes or no.

I acknowledge your example of Estonia - it could be done fairly effectively. And I can think of numerous excellent social use cases that would get soo much easier if everyone had a digital ID that everyone else could trust.

But I worry about how it would be implemented and maintained. What happens _when_ an ID is stolen? Will all actors have access to all uses? What happens _when_ an authentication check gets compromised?

1/2

Show thread_keith_smith_Feb 27, 2023

@fencoul I also worry about how it might get used. For example there are people that want to establish analogues of the Chinese Social Credit System (which depends on a universal digital ID) and introduce the kinds of societal controls it enables.

And even if I trusted the government, can I trust the next one, or the one after that?

So… a real struggle.

2/2

Show threadCalebFeb 28, 2023
@fencoul if the data is secure and under the control of the person it seems a descent idea.
Show threadIan TurtonFeb 28, 2023
@fencoul I also have 2 or possibly 3 government gateway numbers and 3 or 4 NHS /hospital numbers, and a tax payer reference number.