Patrick CornelißenFeb 21, 2023
Sarah Peper 🏳️‍⚧️🇺🇦

Public transport isn't supposed to make money. It's not even supposed to break even. It's supposed to lose money and to be financed and extended from general taxes because it gives back way more than mere money.

And all the politicians know this because they keep building and maintaining streets for free

Feb 20, 2023 at 8:50pmWeb
Show threadDavid FetterFeb 21, 2023
@jay_peper one of the things that makes it cost more money than it has to is all the mechanisms of fare collection, and that VERY specifically includes all the policing figleafed by fare enforcement concerns. Stop attempting to collect fares, and a LOT of systems would actually cost less to operate. All the ones in NYC, for certain.
Show threadJersey GryphonFeb 21, 2023
@davidfetter @jay_peper Stations could also be smaller and you remove a bottleneck. For buses, not collecting fares allows the driver to concentrate on their job and speeds up stops.
Show threadGregMay 22, 2023
@davidfetter @jay_peper I heard that in Sydney they spend roughly as much on ticket machines and ticket checking officers as they get in total from fares. So they could make it all free and they wouldn’t save money but it wouldn’t cost money either.
Show threadDavid FetterMay 22, 2023

@greg @jay_peper they objectively would, though. Those structures take time to engage with, even when you're privileged enough not to be directly assaulted by them, time you can use for useful* pursuits once they're ripped out. Per the financial framework used to make this assessment, that time is money.

*Again, per the framing used to make the assessment, as distinct from one I'd use.

Show threadComrade elronxenuNov 15, 2023
@greg @davidfetter @jay_peper The light rail has inspectors on practically every run. Whereas Melbourne has a CBD-wide free tram zone.
Show threadPaul van den BergenFeb 21, 2023
@jay_peper Imagine the furor if businesses who use the roads had to pay to use them...
Show threadJersey GryphonFeb 21, 2023
@bulwynkl @jay_peper You should also have to get your mileage read every year and pay a fee based on road damage caused.
Show threadPaul van den BergenFeb 22, 2023
@jerseygryphon @jay_peper GPS tracked and assigned to each responsible municipality.. it's only fair...
Show threadJersey GryphonFeb 22, 2023
@bulwynkl @jay_peper GPS tracking might be a little bit far. How about your money gets allocated to the county where the vehicle is registered? Also, as damage is approximately proportional to the fourth power of the axle load, that should be figured in, with a zero bill if it’s less than $100 because who can be bothered to collect that.
Show threadPaul van den BergenFeb 22, 2023

@jerseygryphon @jay_peper ... except that's literally how Google Maps tracks traffic congestion... because we all carry a GPS enabled device with us at all times...

This just keeps getting better...

Show threadJersey GryphonFeb 22, 2023
@bulwynkl @jay_peper I think Google Maps aggregates and anonymises the GPS data. Also "oh no, I left the phone associated with my F150 at home and all I have is my bike on the rack"
Show threadPaul van den BergenFeb 22, 2023
@jerseygryphon @jay_peper Stop using logic I'm trying to construct a nice dystopian fantasy here...
Show threadStephan EggermontFeb 24, 2023
@jerseygryphon @bulwynkl @jay_peper of course not. Why would they do that? They will just not give you access to that granularity
Show threadPaul van den BergenFeb 25, 2023
@StOnSoftware @jerseygryphon @jay_peper money, probably...
Show threadTed DunningMay 23, 2023

That just incentivizes bedroom communities that are tiny and only have low speed roads. The commuters from those suburbs would do their damage elsewhere.

Variants on this is what caused city centers to crash in the 60's and 70's.

@jerseygryphon @bulwynkl @jay_peper

Show threadDaveAug 4, 2025
@jerseygryphon @bulwynkl @jay_peper How it works in New Zealand is that a certain amount of petrol tax goes towards roading - assume comparable to the wear and tear an average petrol car would cause. Trucks, heavy vehicles, and diesel or electric cars (which don't pay petrol tax) pay road user charges per km, payable in advance in however many km at a time and displayed on the windscreen next to the registration sticker.
Show threadDNA scheduleNov 16, 2023
@jerseygryphon @bulwynkl @jay_peper I find this type of argument disingenuous- motorists pay gas tax, wheel tax, registration tax, tolls, there's all kinds of ways you pay for the road depending where you drive 😅
Show threadRobynNov 16, 2023

@ryanprior
Yeah, that's a really big "depending on where you drive".
In my country local roads are paid for almost exclusively by property owners in local body taxes. Fuel taxes etc go to the national body, who use them mostly for state highways with a bit for road safety campaigns and to part fund alternative modes of transport. Vehicle registration goes to road safety and "Accident" compensation scheme, not road building or maintenance

@jerseygryphon @bulwynkl @jay_peper

Show threadDNA scheduleNov 16, 2023
@RedRobyn nuanced response & makes sense. Must say I liked it best when you wrote "local toads" that delighted me 🐸✨
Show threadRobynNov 16, 2023
@ryanprior
The local toads are probably the motorists who insist cyclists should not be on the roads as they don’t pay fuel taxes. The highways their taxes pay for don’t have many cyclists riding on them
Show threadXauri'EL ZwaanNov 19, 2023
@ryanprior @jerseygryphon @bulwynkl @jay_peper the point is that nobody expects roads to "make money" or "pay for themselves". We all understand that roads are a public utility paid for through taxation. But as soon as a fared public transit service is "unprofitable", the fiscal hawks start screaming blue bloody murder and talking about raising fares and axing routes. We'll lay out as much public money as necessary to service cars, but the already-poor get to pay their own way
Show threadEyebee 🇬🇧Feb 27, 2023
@bulwynkl @jay_peper Actually, businesses do fund road usage out of taxation, as do all of us. I think too, once we end up all-electric, along will come road pricing, to replace fuel duty, which is high in some countries.
Show threadPaul van den BergenMay 8, 2023
@eyebee @jay_peper Zackery! so why are we paying for public transport twice?
Show threadEyebee 🇬🇧May 10, 2023
@bulwynkl @jay_peper Make public transport free. That will encourage some extra use, but some people simply need to use a car.
Show threadSarah Peper 🏳️‍⚧️🇺🇦May 10, 2023
@eyebee @bulwynkl some do, but way less than most people think
Show threadEyebee 🇬🇧May 11, 2023
@jay_peper @bulwynkl Thing is, when you have a car, you tend to use it, even for trips that you really don’t need to!
Show threadSarah Peper 🏳️‍⚧️🇺🇦May 11, 2023
@eyebee @bulwynkl and that is (a large) part of the problem
Show threadPaul van den BergenMay 11, 2023
@jay_peper @eyebee
what is (context) and why?
Show threadEyebee 🇬🇧May 14, 2023
@bulwynkl @jay_peper If I had a car sitting on my drive, I would surely use it for trips that I currently work or take public transport for right now.
Show threadPaul van den BergenMay 15, 2023
@eyebee @jay_peper
That's a circular argument though - the only reason you need a car is because PT is inadequate. You can easily demonstrate that hiring a car or taxi can be cheaper - or at least as inexpensive - as buying and running a car. And anyone who's tried to get into the city during rush hour knows that PT is by far the quickest way (all things being equal). In that world, the car use is just for pleasure or work where you are transporting goods or visiting clients - and a taxi would suit for work purposes most of the time - cause we already do exactly that.
Show threadEyebee 🇬🇧May 15, 2023

@bulwynkl @jay_peper I had best at this point state that I am not defending car ownership. In fact, I haven’t had a car myself since returning to the UK in 2010. I truly think that having a car in the UK is a mugs game if you don’t need one, as you’re everyone’s cash cow.

However, I do recognise that not everyone is in the position that I am - i.e not needing a car.

Show threadPaul van den BergenMay 16, 2023

@eyebee @jay_peper While I own a car and prefer not to use it if PT will do the job.

The problem isn't what we do, it's absolutism. Neither of us are calling for either mandatory PT or car use, nor even an imposition on either. At least, my position is that improved (inclusdding free) PT is both good for society (helps the poor), reduces road congestion, save the country money (less road maintenance, less pollution & medical consequences) less accidents, less stress, shorter delivery times, shorter commutes, more tourism) and reduces fossil fuel use.

I've probably missed a few bonuses there...

Show threadEyebee 🇬🇧May 16, 2023

@bulwynkl @jay_peper 1. I’m certainly not calling on mandatory public transport use or banning cars, but for people to sometimes consider the options.

As an example, one of my brothers lived a few miles from my wife and I. From time to time we would meet up for a social evening; a meal and a chat. We would take the bus to our meeting point. My brother would always drive, and then complain when we met up that he had had a hard time finding a parking place nearby.

Show threadEyebee 🇬🇧May 16, 2023
@bulwynkl @jay_peper 2. Then he had an issue with his car. I pointed out that he could take a short walk to the bus stop and the bus would drop him a couple of hundred yards from our meeting point. The bus fare was only £1.50 each way, and both him and his partner could have a drink instead of arguing about designated drivers. He always came on the bus after that, and conceded that it was easier. Of course, shopping would perhaps have been less convenient on the bus.
Show threadEyebee 🇬🇧May 16, 2023
@bulwynkl @jay_peper 3. So it does depend on the purpose of the journey and if the PT has a convenient route for the journey being undertaken.
Show threadAgoraMay 22, 2023
@eyebee @jay_peper @bulwynkl exactly!!
Show threadPaul van den BergenMay 11, 2023
@eyebee @jay_peper yep. And just think how much more space they'll have on the road when public transport works and is free?
Show threadEyebee 🇬🇧May 11, 2023
@bulwynkl @jay_peper Public transport would be much more reliable if 1. There were less cars on the road screwing up the bus schedules and 2. The chronic bus driver shortage could be dealt with.
Show threadEyebee 🇬🇧Feb 27, 2023
@bulwynkl @jay_peper Problem in the UK at least, is that public transport has been privatised so the operators have to charge to get costs back, unlesswe can persuade Government to 100% fund these operators. Of course, better yet, renationalise the whole darn lot, and then there are no profits needed to be creamed off for shareholders.
Show threadPaul van den BergenMay 8, 2023
@eyebee @jay_peper same here in Victoria, only the division between operators, maintenance and governance is split so no one has to take the blame for nothing working.
Show threadTrashPandaFeb 27, 2023
@bulwynkl @jay_peper But business and individuals already do pay taxes, which fund road maintenance... So is this not what we're already doing?
Show threadPaul van den BergenMay 8, 2023

@TrashPanda @jay_peper

If roads were like trains, every road would be a toll road. And to ensure competition, different roads would be owned by different tolling companies. And the toll owners are not required to maintain the roads.

Show threadTrashPandaMay 13, 2023
@bulwynkl @jay_peper I didn't say roads are like trains. Heck a better comparison would be saying roads are like train tracks, or trains are like cars. Let's not confuse the infrastructure with the vehicle.
But also trains do not equal public transportation. Busses are probably more relevant public transit in more cities (at least in the US) and metro trains and subways are publicly owned, so there is no effort to "ensure competition" (not that there's any serious effort in other industries but that's another story), and taxpayers DO pay to maintain them. So I'm not sure what you're getting at.
Show threadChris Laprun ⏚Feb 21, 2023
@jay_peper the same should be said about all public services, of which many are not currently public anymore or on their way to becoming private, such as education, healthcare or energy services…
Show threadmjfgatesFeb 21, 2023
@jay_peper .. Except roads are paid for via taxes on fuel and on vehicles? It's a huge issue; nobody's sure what to do about it in the face of all the electric cars showing up. In the US, different jurisdictions are trying different stuff; I can't seem to find anything but handwringing about it from the UK.
Show threadJonathan Baker-BatesFeb 21, 2023
@mjfgates roads in the UK are not paid for by any specific tax, nor are lack of tax receipts from EVs seen as a problem as far as I know. Do you have a citation?
Show threadWalrus 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿Dec 20, 2023

@Gilgongo @mjfgates

And that's just not how government spending works.

Show threadJens AytonFeb 21, 2023
@mjfgates @jay_peper No, roads are paid for by general taxation. Few places if any have enough road and vehicle taxes to cover the costs.
Show threadcreekFeb 21, 2023
@mjfgates roads are paid for *in part* by taxes on fuel and vehicle registrations. @jay_peper likely include "from general taxes" for this reason--when fuel taxes and registrations don't cover road projects, money gets pulled from other tax funds.
Show threadSarah Peper 🏳️‍⚧️🇺🇦Feb 21, 2023
@mjfgates maybe my perspective is different for growing up outside the UK, but I consider fuel duty to be offset for harm to society by burning fuel (although the actual harm is bigger than fuel duty raised)
Show threadCassandrichFeb 23, 2023
@mjfgates @jay_peper Gigantic fixed fees per vehicle independent of usage, unless you submit to tracking. It's awful and makes EVs an non starter in jurisdictions doing it. Vastly more expensive per year than my total gas bill.
Show threadCassandrichFeb 24, 2023
@mjfgates @jay_peper For now they should just increase gas taxes inversely proportional to % of vehicles that are still ICE, so as to make a compounding incentive to convert until gas taxes reach $50/gal or so, and gradually shift to taxing businesses based on # of employees who commute to pay for roads (alongside payroll tax).
Show threadmnemonicoverloadJan 16, 2024
@jay_peper @mjfgates Municipal roads / streets are mostly paid for by property taxes that everyone pays regardless if they drive or not.
Show threadpatrislav ♾️ #RIPNatenomFeb 21, 2023
@jay_peper Andy Singer made this nice cartoon about it
Show threadElzi VolkFeb 21, 2023
@patrislav @jay_peper This portrays the US to a 'T'.
Show threadJohn Caveney woke is me🛠️Feb 27, 2023
@patrislav @jay_peper ah, Dr Beeching, we’ve been expecting you…..
Show threadJohn Caveney woke is me🛠️Dec 23, 2023
@jay_peper @patrislav 👏👏👏👏
Show threadaurozNov 15, 2023

@patrislav @jay_peper our glorious public investment
their wasteful subsidy

our mighty healthcare system
their inefficient socialism

(disclaimer: not american)

Show threadrevphilDec 20, 2023
@patrislav @jay_peper someday id like to look back at this time and laugh. But not in the deranged way.
Show threadPeter RileyDec 20, 2023

@patrislav

Seasons gratings