@[email protected] @timbray I gave up on crowdsourced blacklists long ago. My experience, in the context of email spam, is that eventually the admin has a tantrum and ends up blocking all of AWS or some shit.

@jwz @lwndow

Hmm interesting. Given the structure of the Fediverse, with thousands of instances, and the fact that brand-new troll instances pop up regularly, it'd be nice to have some sort of shared-block capability.

@timbray @jwz @lwndow isn't that what #Fediblock attempts to do?
@aaron @timbray @jwz @[email protected] Fediblock does, #fediblock doesn't. The distinction is that one is a centrally controlled Blocklist and one is an information resource.
@timbray @[email protected] Sure, and it's probably necessary to try... but there seems to be something about operating a blocklist that eventually makes the operator lose their damn mind and double down on some scorched-earth change that, while probably "in accordance with policy", also ends up just breaking everything for everybody.
@jwz too much overlap with node module developer perhaps
@donw @jwz open source developers breaking dependency chains because they're being exploited is not the same as block list owners becoming unaccountable and abusive when maintaining a widely used block list, although i understand why it may seem similar at first. there's a power differential, and making a library unusable does not cause interpersonal harm
@hipsterelectron every tantrum-thrower thinks they have a good reason for their tantrum.

@donw @jwz this is not related to any technology (unless you're just alluding to a person, then ignore the rest)

there's a specific type (to drastically simplify, think lawful good) that thrives on very hands-on, very detailed rule-making. they like to be useful, they like to punish transgressors, they don't like unrighteous who don't heed their warnings.

when they end in a position of a sole decision maker, which they frequently do, because they're driven by duty, the damage they end doing is immense.

(i think that any person managing their own mail server for longer than a decade would recognize the phenomenon)

@jwz @timbray @lwndow I miss slrn's scoring/regexp killfiles. I know we can do better with Bayesian filtering and maybe soon GANs (not as AI to generate text but as AI to spot trolls/hate speech?) but I still miss some of the old usenet affordances.

@cstross @jwz @timbray @lwndow

This. I would give a lot to read mastodon in gnus with structure and scoring.

@cstross @jwz @timbray @lwndow was more of a trn user, if I remember correctly, but… Mastodon is the most Usenet-y feeling forum I’ve seen in a while. And I wouldn’t really want a command-line curses-based Mastodon reader, but I can definitely see the usefulness of bringing some of the other techniques and ideas from the old readers into the Mastodon realm.
@carlrj @cstross @jwz @timbray A tin-like client would be awesome. I'd even pay for it.

@timbray @jwz @lwndow Hence my proposal for curation.

People subscribe to one or more curators who promise to find them content they are likely to 'like' and unlikely to 'dislike'. They are held accountable by the client suppressing results from poorly performing curators.

The curators take the like/dislike responses from a large number of users (a million say) and perform AI analysis to identify a much smaller number of orthogonal traits (hundreds). Each user is classified according to the extent to which their responses have a positive/negative correlation with the traits. This is then used to provide individualized recommendations for each user.

In this model, the people producing the spam will of course create a citation cartel liking the garbage as a sibyl attack on the system. But these responses will be identified as a separate trait which most users correlate negatively. So the fact that the spammer citation cartel is liking the post makes it less likely I will see it. Contrawise, the fact that Putin's people are disliking posts critical of the diminutive dictator will actually make it more likely I see them.

In this model, the instance you post from is irrelevant. Only the interactions of people whose responses closely correlate with your own are going to affect what you see. So the NAZIs will get feeds containing lots of the pathetic content they enjoy and I will see none of it.

@hallam @timbray @jwz @[email protected] Yes. Content Curation should be a competitive service -- as well as facilitated by user selected tools and options. Some services will be based on human evaluations, while others, such as the one you describe, would be based on AI technology. In the end, users should be given a wide range of choices for determining how what they are exposed to is curated.

@bobwyman @timbray @jwz @lwndow The key for me is preventing the ‘enshitification’ that @doctorow talks about.

What distinguishes the curators in my system from Facebook or Twitter is that if they fail me, I have a tool that will tell me immediately.

Of course, I am going to expect that a free service supported by adverts is going to contain less relevant content than one I pay for. But a curation service that starts playing the Zuckerburg game of filling my feed with posts by NAZIs just to try and provoke a response from me is going to end up down rated pretty quickly.

It is all about accountability. The curators in my system are accountable, the curators at Twitter and Facebook are not.

I am building a client. But probably won’t get round to making a curation service. Certainly not this year at least.

@timbray

@jwz @lwndow

Shared blocking for account level or shared blocking for a personal single use instance is fine.

Large multi user instances using shared blocking is a recipe for disaster and abuse.

Only use shared blacklists if the only person you can negatively impact due to your trust of the list is yourself.
@timbray @jwz @lwndow the two places I’d look for ideas are, what did Usenet do for that kind of blocking, and what does @nova do (or anticipate doing) with/for Hachyderm?
@jwz @[email protected] @timbray The big block-together birdlist got looped into punishing people for calling out racism within 6 months of its creation.

@Elucidating @jwz @lwndow @timbray there were a few, that one was very badly moderated.

…the best block list i have ever seen was the one created at the time of irish 8th amendment repeal campaign: very well vetted, and with appeal mechanisms. i never had false positives from that one, and it happened to be quite effective against the general terfery too.

@jwz Ain’t that what living is all about? @lwndow @timbray