Elizabeth Wrigley-FieldFeb 1, 2023

This seems like a great time for colleges to stop giving credit for high school classes with a test attached.

(All APs—not just Af-Am studies, which students should not have a special lack of incentive to take)

Any good analyses of how this would affect affordability? How many low-income students use AP credits to cut down on overall tuition expenses? Because I’m quite serious about wanting this to be a moment where we get rid of this thing.

#CollegeBoard #AP #racism

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/01/us/college-board-advanced-placement-african-american-studies.html

The College Board Strips Down Its A.P. Curriculum for African American Studies

The official course looks different from a previous draft: No more critical race theory, and the study of contemporary topics — like Black Lives Matter — is optional.

Show threadgeofischFeb 1, 2023
@wrigleyfield It hasn't ever occurred to me that AP credit is bad. What are the concerns and downsides of it?
Show threadElizabeth Wrigley-FieldFeb 1, 2023

@geofisch Two things:

1) IMO even a mediocre college class is almost always more challenging & connected to academic disciplines than a HS class.

Relatives of mine insisted that their AP history courses were just like college courses--but they were textbook-based courses that didn't use primary sources. That's *really, really different* from college history courses I took!

2) Accepting #AP credits outsources college curricular decisions to the #CollegeBoard--& boy do we see the problem there

geofischFeb 1, 2023
Show threadSuzanne Paley
@wrigleyfield @geofisch
Re (1), I think it very much depends on the subject. I think the history classes are uniquely awful in this respect -- there is never going to be a single college class covering "US History" or "World History" that the AP classes could substitute for. College history classes pretty universally tend to have a narrower scope but dig deeper, which is what you want out of a college class. And AP CS (not to mention CSP) is kind of a joke. But AP languages seem like a reasonable substitute for a college foreign language requirement, and AP Calc pretty much covers the same material you'd find in the corresponding college calculus class. I'd say the same for at least some of the sciences. My daughter wasn't given credit for her AP Econs (I'm not sure why not), and had to take the corresponding intro college class for her major and found it to be pretty much an exact repeat.
Feb 1, 2023 at 8:00pmWeb
Show threadElizabeth Wrigley-FieldFeb 1, 2023

@smpaley @geofisch Yes, that makes a lot of sense to me about disciplinary differences. It strikes me that languages and calc have very well-defined subject matter that one either learns or doesn't, so showing proficiency in whatever way means one is proficient. But for history, and for most classes in my disciplines, introductory college classes are teaching skills *at least* as much as content, and often more. I'm deeply skeptical that AP classes teach the same skills in general

(cont'd)

Show threadElizabeth Wrigley-FieldFeb 1, 2023

@smpaley @geofisch

Priors: I bet AP classes w particularly skilled instructors teach writing better than the average uni (not necessarily liberal arts college) class bc they're smaller (& teachers expect to spend more of their own time on grading). I'd expect this to be limited to relatively effective teachers, though

& I bet the volume of reading assigned is typically higher across the board in college than HS, though of course we often have the implicit deal that students don't really do it

Show threadSuzanne PaleyFeb 1, 2023

@wrigleyfield @geofisch Even w/ standardized AP curriculum, quality of classes is going to be so variable. I think that if a uni would accept credit from the local community college (which are also highly variable in quality), then it's reasonable to give credit for AP classes w/ comparable content. I think it's important to evaluate them on a per-subject basis though. For example, I know a lot of engineering schools, including the one my son is at, don't give credit (or only elective credit) for AP CS b/c it's such a weak class.

The number of AP subjects has ballooned since I was in HS. I was flabbergasted when I heard there was an AP World History, which is taught to HS freshmen in some schools. There is no way that will be the equiv of any college class, it's just a HS freshman honors class. Which is fine, and I understand why the College Board would want to have as many offerings as possible, but no way should universities feel bound to credit these.

Show threadgeofischFeb 1, 2023
@smpaley @wrigleyfield I realize that my knowledge of AP is 30 years out of date; my kids have done IB, which is kind of a different discussion.
Show threadjohnsobs77Feb 2, 2023
@wrigleyfield @smpaley @geofisch an AP history course is a full year of study to get credit for three credit hours (a semester) at a university. It is very comparable (as someone who took both AP US History in high school and US government at Georgia Tech can attest). I used the credits from high school so I could focus on engineering and get into graduate courses before I finished my undergraduate degree.
Show threadElizabeth Wrigley-FieldFeb 2, 2023
@johnsobs77 @smpaley @geofisch Was your AP class primary source-based or your college class textbook-based?
Show threadjohnsobs77Feb 2, 2023
@wrigleyfield @smpaley @geofisch both textbook based. The only primary sourced classes I took were also in high school, two years of IB European History.