Mark GoedickeJan 30, 2023
Anil Dash
One thing to understand about police "reform" is that, if you have to teach someone that it's wrong to brutally beat an innocent person to death, you _can't_ actually teach them that it's wrong to brutally beat an innocent person to death.
Jan 30, 2023 at 7:38pmWeb
Show threadPax Ahimsa Gethen 🏳️‍⚧️Jan 30, 2023

@anildash

I would amend that to say that it's wrong to beat any person to death regardless of presumed guilt or innocence.

Show threadNot a Spring OnionJan 30, 2023
@funcrunch @anildash
At least neurotypical people seem to have "social environment"-dependent morals.
So part of the problem is likely that police officers are surrounded by other police officers instead of decent people.
Show threadRoss GreensillJan 30, 2023

@wakame @funcrunch @anildash

I perceived a mob mentality across those officers.

Show threadAdamas NemesisJan 31, 2023
@wakame The fundamental problem is that if someone doesn't have a conscience or a moral compass that's not a problem that any form of teaching can fix.
Show threadAnil DashJan 30, 2023
@funcrunch yep, of course.
Show threadShoq 🌿Jan 30, 2023
@anildash It still astonishes me when I watch those videos, that the only indication they might be found legally or morally culpable for anything is a few feeble overheard pretexts like "I think he was high on something, don't you?" It's not like capturing these scenes is something new. I fear it's not just a lack of a capacity by modern cops to foresee consequences, but rather that too many just don't seem to care. I don't know how we're going to fix it. If we do.
Show threadFeralRobotsJan 30, 2023

@anildash
I think this is a better way to frame it than 'we know they know it's wrong because they don't do it to everyone.'

They think it's *right*. The reason they don't do it to just anyone is because they can't get away with it - they would, if they could.

Show threadLot⁴⁹Jan 30, 2023
@anildash You know what they say: the kind of cop who wants to be on your SWAT team is exactly the sort of cop you don't want on your SWAT team.
Show threadAlex@rtnVFRmedia Suffolk UKJan 30, 2023
@12thRITS @anildash Here in UK, where neither cops nor citizens routinely carry firearms (so becoming an armed officer requires specialist training, a higher level of physical fitness and mental health/psychological assessments that are not easy to pass), the constabularies are still plagued by rogue officers - one turned out to be a serial sexual predator, eventually murdered a random woman and got given a whole life sentence (which is also rare in UK, even for murder)
Show threadLot⁴⁹Jan 31, 2023
@vfrmedia @anildash Here's an interesting little graph and discussion of how US police kill more people than others.
https://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2023/01/the-problem-is-america
The problem is America – Lawyers, Guns & Money

Show threadSandraJan 30, 2023
@anildash

Yes, that's right! 👍🏻
That's why the idea is less to reform police individuals but instead to make systemic changes (such as non-cop crisis response teams of trained social workers like Canada, Eugene, and Stockholm has), in addition to non-cop traffic officers.
Show threadGlobaltomJan 30, 2023
@anildash But: you can teach people how to avoid employing such people in the first place.
Show threadSheila BjeletichJan 30, 2023

@anildash

Remove all sadistic cops.

Show threadHumble Fan of Atty. WooJan 30, 2023

@anildash

bingo. too often becoming a policeman is the easiest job to get for someone wanting out of food service. Give me a gun and handcuffs and a taser?? Hell yes! There should be a psych eval for anyone who wants to be a policeman. People who are at the end of the spectrum as far as intelligence goes should not be allowed to join. Look to other nations for comparison. We should air higher. Protestors would get along better with police who arrest them for illegal things, as an example, if they aren't beating them with batons and tasering them. argh!

Show threadGuillotineJan 31, 2023
@BillMcGuire @anildash This is off topic, but anyone coming out of food service, especially in the US, probably arleady needs ptsd therapy.
Show threadTheJenFeb 1, 2023

@Guillotine @BillMcGuire @anildash

That's the damn truth.

Show threadHumble Fan of Atty. WooFeb 1, 2023

@JenWojcik @Guillotine @anildash

I remember spending Thanksgiving up in east TX with my grandparents on mom's side. Grandma told us that the paper bag by the toilet was for poop paper. Their septic tank was full. As a teen, I was scarred by that. hahaha

Show threadHumble Fan of Atty. WooFeb 1, 2023

@Guillotine @anildash

interesting theory, but I was a lowly waiter's asst who washed dishes, etc., at a gourmet restaurant for a bit. To me it was just a part time job while in college. I didn't make a life of it like some might be stuck in. I believe it is far different having food service job long term than one that is temporary as mine was. I'm a firm believer in being nice to food servers and anyone else who has the opportunity to spit in my food, which is why I am quick to tell anyone at my table not to speak unkindly to the staff. carry on

Show threadPhil NelsonJan 30, 2023
@anildash or, a guilty person even
Show threadInfiniteOneJan 30, 2023
@anildash Unfortunate #fact
Show threadDan Miller VFXJan 30, 2023
@anildash But there are systems in the police that seem to reward, encourage and protect the worst actors.
Show threadSocialistStanJan 30, 2023
@anildash Abolish all of them.
Show threadMagess Jan 30, 2023
@anildash Why is that even categorized as reform? I thought "additional training" is what they do in *place* of reform...
Show threadDaisy MurphyJan 30, 2023
@anildash
The public should react like this every time the police beat someone to death, shoot unarmed people, kill children in the park, burn houses down, rob people- "civil forfeiture" or stand by and watch people drown without helping.
The only reason the reaction to this shameful crime has been so swift and so loud from some people (republicans) is because the police officers involved are black.
They didn't mind AT ALL when white cops did all of the above.
Show threadJosh AdellJan 30, 2023
@anildash Right. But reforming the police doesn't mean abolishing them. It means (in part) putting policy, procedure, and screening in place to ensure people like that don't become police.
Show threadAnil DashJan 31, 2023
@joshadell the police don't actually hire folks who beat innocent people to death; they hire people who wouldn't do that, and then teach them to become that kind of person. So you can't actually put policies in place that make cops not act like cops.
Show threadJosh AdellJan 31, 2023
@anildash I disagree. They're training and onboarding processes screen for people who are predisposed to it. Those who aren't quickly wash out either in academy or burn out within the first few years on the job. Those who are left are ones who were bullies and authoritarians to begin with or had it in them to be.
Show threadJordanFeb 2, 2023
@anildash @joshadell agree with Anil here. The cops that killed Tyre would not have been people that beat a man to death had they not become police officers. That wouldn’t have been a thing they did if they had become waiters.
Show threadrupeJan 31, 2023
@anildash or a guilty person for that matter
Show threadEbergJan 31, 2023
@anildash
My question is whether they're being trained to think it's okay to beat someone to death for perceived slights.
Show threadLee 🌏Jan 31, 2023
@anildash
Anyone got any books they can recommend on Alternatives to the current Police Forces.
Show threadJulio 🏳️‍🌈 🇨🇺 🇪🇸 🇺🇸Jan 31, 2023
@anildash True.
Show threadRed FasterJan 31, 2023
@anildash Maybe police just need sensitivity training where they get abducted by armed gangs and beaten to death?
Show threadKathy CarboneJan 31, 2023
@anildash 100%👍🏼
Show threadFrancisca SinnJan 31, 2023
@anildash This.
Show threadJohannes  Jan 31, 2023
@anildash this, and
Show threadLizardJan 31, 2023

@anildash To add to this correct statement, IMO, it starts because police culture *first* teaches that it's *right* to beat someone to death. That lesson is taught implicitly, and no one explicitly tries to counter it, for the reason you mention: We (society) assume it's not something we need to teach a putatively sane adult.

So Joe Cop joins up, and he learns from his fellow officers you gotta be tough to deal with the scum, it's kill or be killed, and no one's gonna care if you rough some guy up, thin blue line, means justify the ends, and there's no effort spent training recruits against that culture.
/1

Show threadLizardJan 31, 2023

@anildash /2
Suppose that instead of training starting with "Here's how you take down a man with a gun", it started with "Here's how you *talk* down a man with a gun." If de-escalation, conflict avoidance, and respect for human rights was the primary focus, and the use of force was taught as a failure mode, a sign maybe you're not cut out for being a cop, maybe, just maybe, there'd be a cultural shift.

But doing that is only possible if the existing personnel weren't already in place to undermine it. Cultural change is *hard*, in any institution, and there's few institutions that can just dissolve and re-form. Not only is the preservation of institutional knowledge essential, such 're-formed' groups typically attract the same people.

Show threadLizardJan 31, 2023
@anildash "means justify the ends" was a typo... but thinking about it, I think I'm gonna leave it in, despite having the blessed ability to *edit* here. I think my error was, in fact, a truth in disguise when it comes to the kind of mental processes we're discussing.
Show threadJoan of Cat (she/her) 😼Jan 31, 2023

@LizardSF @anildash

We could almost sum up your entire argument with "imagine if we could be kind to one another," and I'm like, damn.

I really, really wish that. 😿

Show threadJMaverickJacks1Jan 31, 2023
@anildash Amen! States must screen cops for racism and authoritarianism before handing them guns. My sister, the sheriff of her county, says a disturbing number of cops are “kids who got picked on in school and want to take it out on everyone else.”
Cops must be screened for attentiveness too. Years ago, she saw cops from outside her jurisdiction about to raid the wrong house. She asked what they were doing, and after checking papers, they confessed they were at the wrong address: mine!
Show threadWill AllenJan 31, 2023

@anildash this goes back a long, long way. Police have been used as race and class enforcement pretty much as long as there have been police. But in more recent history, there was a major turning point when former US President George W Bush militarized the police.

A lot of us said at the time, "the military is for killing enemies. Police are not here to kill enemies. They're here to protect citizens."

But that kind of messaging and empowerment has absolutely done its job, and it's hard to find a cop who doesn't see the world as a battle between good guys and bad guys, and the bad guys are civilians.

Show threadStatmonkey 🙊Jan 31, 2023
@anildash This is what I keep trying to explain. Reform is impossible. We need to make fundamental changes.
Show threadJonathan Kamens 86 47Jan 31, 2023
@anildash Evergreen:
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/i-dont-know-how-to-explain-to-you-that-you-should_b_59519811e4b0f078efd98440
I Don't Know How To Explain To You That You Should Care About Other People

Our disagreement is not merely political, but a fundamental divide on what it means to live in a society.

HuffPost
Show threadSupposeNotJan 31, 2023
@anildash more chilling to me is the realization that instead we seem to be training significant numbers of the police to disregard the health and safety of the people they encounter, and that protecting “respect” for their authority is paramount.
Show threadDreadwailFeb 1, 2023
@anildash This is true, but you could omit the word "innocent" as well. Nobody should be beaten to death, even if they aren't innocent.
Show threadAnil DashFeb 1, 2023
@dreadwail amen.
Show threadJeff C. 🇺🇦🇬🇱Feb 1, 2023
@anildash @bryanbartow I think a lot of effective reform, by necessity, is less about education and more about filtering sociopaths out before they get hired (and ridding oneself of those who already have been).