I was compelled to explain in a large training session that Excel and MathCAD are not, Not, NOT acceptable tools for performing QL-1 nuclear safety calculations.

I absolutely hate that I have to keep explaining this to degreed engineers doing safety-critical work.

I am going to die on this hill whether I want to or not.

This just makes me want to cry.

Excel is suitable only for tasks less important than Girl Scout cookie sales tracking. Do not bet anything more valuable than a box of Thin Mints on Excel.

@arclight
Excel is not a spreadsheet. Excel is a full-featured virtual machine running a smalltalk-inspired REPL whose display layer happens to resemble a spreadsheet.

Something like a third of the world’s money goes through Excel every single day, and the reason you don’t think Excel is a Real Programming Language is because if we admitted that, we’d have to admit that most of the most important software in the world was written by underpaid women in pink collar jobs, and we can’t have that.

@mhoye I think we're on the same page here. Excel is the world's most popular functional programming system. The problem is that it's sold and viewed as an easy-to-use tool for "non-programmers". The problem is that it is in fact a programming system, spreadsheets are software, and should be treated with the same rigorous review process as software written in traditional languages. Hiding the programming aspect of the system has a secondary effect of making them virtually impossible to verify.
@mhoye I can't really speak to the pink collar aspect; I'll have to forward that to my wife who is the Excel expert in the family ;)

@arclight my guy, you just referred to excel as a child’s toy only suitable for tasks less important than girl guide cookie sales and then referred me to your wife as the family excel expert.

Just tell her how little you think of her, don’t involve me in this.

@mhoye I think you're really misunderstanding what I'm saying and that we're probably in furious agreement.

My wife works in emergency management and is regularly called on for complex Excel tasks. She is _literally_ the Excel expert in the household.

It's not that I consider Excel a toy, I consider it a tool used far outside of its intended scope of use by people who are not treated as programmers, not given adequate training or tools for their work. That's a problem.

@arclight @mhoye The technical point you are making - that the lack of verification systems for Excel makes it unsuitable for applications where correctness is important - is not unreasonable and it's possible that it's true. The way you've talked about this though uses language that resonates with misogyny. If you don't want that, it's worth debugging what you have internalized that you can identify and unlearn. If you think it would be helpful, I can point out some of the cues I see here.
@cdemwell @mhoye I understand that; I've chosen my words carefully and am open to clarification and questions. However, I'm not interested in arguing over words I haven't said, positions I don't hold, or hair-splitting over terminology or tone. Sorry/thanks.
@arclight @cdemwell @mhoye - There is no escape for you in this thread. I recommend you change yer name and move to Belize. God bless you!
@MrShoggoth "As God as my witness, I thought turkeys could fly."