Mastodawn

Darnell Clayton

#Deutschland 🇩🇪 (also known as #Germany 🇩🇪) should send #Ukraine 🇺🇦 tanks, but the #UnitedStates 🇺🇸 needs to offer tanks as well.

If #America 🇺🇸 wants to fight a proxy #war against #Russia 🇷🇺, then they need to commit to winning the war as sending #HIMARS is not enough.

👉🏾 Germany has stalled on sending tanks to Ukraine. Here's why the Leopard 2 is so important https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/20/europe/germany-leopard-2-tank-ukraine-explainer-intl/index.html

jeSuisatire neindochohh ᘛ⁐̤ᕐᐷ

talking serious:
Calling the followup generations of WW1 and WW2 Germany to send tanks to the east is quite "astonishing" to say the least.

In the same tröt mentioning the term proxy war makes it even worse.

Darnell Clayton

@jesuisatire I do not think it would be fair for #Germany 🇩🇪 to send tanks to #Urkaine 🇺🇦 without the #UnitedStates 🇺🇸 sending tanks as well (they do not even have to be Abram tanks).

Yes, it is a proxy war against #Russia 🇷🇺, the latter who started this silly war by invading Ukraine 🇺🇦 for the third time.

I doubt #Putin will stop at Ukraine 🇺🇦, as he probably invade #Moldova 🇲🇩 afterwards in order to formally occupy #Transnistria (a pro Russian region).

Mael Duin Jan 22, 2023

@darnell
If seems pretty clear that you do support Ukraine, but I would be *really* careful about using the term 'proxy war'.

It implies that America has somehow deliberately engineered this situation in order to achieve its aims. I'm sure that's not what you mean, but the term definitely implies it.
@jesuisatire

mʕ•ﻌ•ʔm bitPickup Jan 22, 2023

Even tho any questions or observations in the face of the loss of human lifes are inadequate, some observations and questions to be asked might be:

Can it be in the general interest of the US to prevent a common ground between the EU and Russia as allegedly put forward by Brzezinski?

What was the outcome when something like that happened when France, Germany and Rusia opposed the Irak invasion after 9/11?

Did the "fu** the EU" comment happend, and if so why?

Darnell Clayton

@maelduin13 @jesuisatire The #UnitedStates 🇺🇸 #military aid to #Ukraine 🇺🇦 against #Russia 🇷🇺 is defined as a proxy #war.

👉🏾 https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/proxy-war

Others agree.

👉🏾 https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/russia-is-right-the-us-is-waging-aproxy-war-in-ukraine/2022/05/10/2c8058a4-d051-11ec-886b-df76183d233f_story.html

👉🏾 https://www.cnbc.com/video/2022/06/06/ex-us-diplomat-explains-why-the-ukraine-war-has-become-a-proxy-war.html

proxy war

1. a war fought between groups or smaller countries that each represent the…

Darnell Clayton

@maelduin13 @jesuisatire Proxy wars do not have to be initiated by a side, but it benefits one side at the expense of the other.

#Russia 🇷🇺 & waged a proxy #war against the #UnitedStates 🇺🇸 during the #Vietnam 🇻🇳 war…

👉🏾 https://www.history.com/news/vietnam-war-combatants

& Korean war.

👉🏾 https://www.history.com/news/korean-war-causes-us-involvement

Proxy wars are frequently used by regional & global powers.

Which Countries Were Involved in the Vietnam War?

How eight countries got involved in the Vietnam War's Cold War proxy battle.

HISTORY

Mael Duin Jan 22, 2023

@darnell @jesuisatire
The key point is that 'proxy war' is a term used by the Kremlin and their apologists to attribute blame to the west for what is happening.

America is no more fighting a proxy war than is Poland, Estonia or Finland.

The western policy with Ukraine has always been to offer mutually beneficial trade deals and help in fighting corruption. Putin decided to start a war over it because he has no attractive EU equivalent to offer Ukraine and they rejected him.

/1

Mael Duin Jan 22, 2023

@darnell @jesuisatire

There is a terrorist state banging on the eastern door of the West and we’re all just trying to defend ourselves without starting WWIII over it.

Up until recently the policy of the west toward Russia had been to act in the hope that it would become a democratic reliable trading partner - as exemplified by Obama telling Romney he was stuck in the 80s for saying that Russia was our greatest threat.

/2

Mael Duin Jan 22, 2023

@darnell @jesuisatire

The safest thing for you to do is not use the term ‘proxy war’ as it has been weaponised by the Kremlin. People will assume that you are on the wrong side if you use it, and it will prevent you from contributing meaningfully to a good faith discussion.

/3

Darnell Clayton

@maelduin13 @jesuisatire I appreciate the concern but people in the #UnitedStates 🇺🇸 have been calling this a proxy #war long before #Putin & the #Kremlin did.

Also, removing all emotion from the conflict between #Urkaine 🇺🇦 & #Russia 🇷🇺, it is technically, by definition a proxy war by #NATO & friends against Russia. That is an indisputable fact.

👉🏾 https://www.oxfordreference.com/display/10.1093/acref/9780199670840.001.0001/acref-9780199670840-e-1742

proxy war

"proxy war" published on by Oxford University Press.

Oxford Reference

Darnell Clayton

@maelduin13 @jesuisatire Just because the #Kremlin weaponizes a word does not mean we surrender it too them. That is akin to people being scared of using the ok 👌🏾 symbol because white supremacists used it.

👉🏾 https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2018/09/18/ok-sign-white-power-symbol-or-just-right-wing-troll

This is silly & puts one in the position of perpetual retreat.

Is that an OK sign? A white power symbol? Or just a right-wing troll?

From its adoption first by white nationalists, and then by 4chan trolls intent on ‘triggering the libs,’ the well-known hand signal’s use points to deeper concerns.

Southern Poverty Law Center

@darnell @maelduin13 @jesuisatire IIRC the ok sign thing was a troll thing 4chan came up with though.

jeSuisatire neindochohh ᘛ⁐̤ᕐᐷ Jan 22, 2023

the kremlin talking in english?
.. oh no!

.. maybe we should start communicating exclusively in morse code, other wise we might be aiding the enemies by talking the same language as them ..

Darnell Clayton

@jesuisatire 🙄

👉🏾 https://youtu.be/jrXf8Qn9pBI

Hear Vladimir Putin speaking English

YouTube

jeSuisatire neindochohh ᘛ⁐̤ᕐᐷ Jan 22, 2023

😇

https://youtu.be/9OB72GZOS4c

Trevor Noah - Some Languages Are Scary

YouTube

Darnell Clayton

@maelduin13 @jesuisatire Also aiding #Ukraine 🇺🇦 (which #NATO & the #UnitedStates 🇺🇸 should have done when #Crimea was seized) is the correct action to do, which means we will be fighting #Russia 🇷🇺 via proxy as the latter is an authoritarian bully who only understands one language: power.

#America 🇺🇸 might have to mimic this tactic worldwide, as Russia 🇷🇺 is also causing chaos in #Mali 🇲🇱, #CentralAfricanRepublic 🇨🇫, #Libya 🇱🇾 & #BurkinaFaso via the #Wagner group.

Mael Duin Jan 22, 2023

@darnell @jesuisatire

I agree with you that we should now wage proxy war on #Russia wherever we can, and should have done so a long time ago, over both #Syria and #Ukraine, and possibly #Georgia before that.

But up until now we have not been - and still aren't really now when we are just helping #Ukraine survive instead of striking a serious blow against Russia

/1

Mael Duin Jan 22, 2023

@darnell @jesuisatire

I do think we need to be careful with the term ‘proxy war’ as it has mostly been used to propagate bullshit about NATO expansionism, Russia’s ‘legitimate’ security concerns etc.

And be wary that using the term could make potential allies hostile!

But I think we’re on the same page with the need to defend democracy against Russia and the network of tyrants who want to get their claws into every continent on the planet.

You’ve earned a follow from me anyway!

/2

jeSuisatire neindochohh ᘛ⁐̤ᕐᐷ Jan 22, 2023

> we need to be careful

> I think we’re on the same page with the need to defend democracy against Russia

jeSuisatire neindochohh ᘛ⁐̤ᕐᐷ Jan 22, 2023

> @jesuisatire I agree with you that we should now wage proxy war on #Russia wherever we can