This Saturday 14/1 I will join activists in Lützerath to defend the village and stop the coalmine. Join us at 12.00 to protect life, and put people over profit!

The science is clear, the most affected people are clear: no more fossil fuels!
#LütziBleibt #EndCoal

@gretathunberg

The worst is that is would have been entirely avoidable if Germany did not choose to stop its Nuclear powerplant and depend on russian gas #energiewende.

@adev

Even worse: It would have been well avoidable if Germany had chosen to shut down all nuclear power plants much earlier and to increase (instead of decrease) boosting renewable energy production, along with other measures such as reduction of overall energy need.

@gretathunberg

@Voka
@gretathunberg

No it would not. It would be exactly the same shit. Renewable are intermittent and there is no amount of "boosting" that will ever change that. Pure RE requires backup generally based on Gas or Coal, exactly like you have now.

Just get over your brain dead fear of #nuclear energy Germany. We are not in the 90s anymore and Tchernobyl is past.

And by the sake of god, do not speak about grid battery storage, it is ecologically speaking even more ridiculous.

@adev

Very sad, your arrogant way of discourse.

It seems that we won't get to any kind understanding, at least in this medium. Bye.

Edit: I forgot first taking a look at your profile and recent toots and boosts before saying something like above. We might share some good baseline of opinions (not too surprising, though). Nevertheless, about this thread, it seems best to stop discussing.

@gretathunberg

@Voka
@gretathunberg

I'm always very open to constructive debate. Life is about continuously learning: still I never met any anti-nuclear person having the slight scientific argument to defend their conviction. Please prove me wrong.

@adev

It is difficult to scratch up the energy to do so (i.e., to recollect a number of those scientific arguments that build the basis of my current knowledge and conviction) after encountering expressions like "brain dead" and "shit". It's not only about some of these simple words but they contribute to the whole attitude that your recent replies (not you as a person - I don't know you) indicate, and this attitude feels quite toxic for a constructive, respectful debate.

@gretathunberg

@Voka @gretathunberg

My apologies if my very direct message shocked you or make you feel like it was targeted to you. It was not.

I met so many oil and gas / Greenpeace troll on Twitter or here that I am often pretty defensive on the topic.

But yes I do believe nuclear energy is necessary if we do want to reach carbon neutrality as fast as possible. And the current CO2 emissions for electricity of Germany vs France seems to give me right on this aspect.

@Voka @gretathunberg Please consider that I took a random instant snapshot the current situation.

Wind is blowing today. When it is not and wind generator falls under 10% capacity, the situation is even more disastrous sadly.

@adev

You are talking about a (near) dark doldrums, I guess. I remember a climate scientist / expert for energy systems (member of the scientists for future) explaining that the problem with dark doldrums is overestimated and can be handled. The bottom line of this and other sources: nuclear energy is not needed. I can't reproduce details from memory, though, I would have to dig it out. But well, it's quite late, sleep is long overdue. 😆

@gretathunberg

@adev

Oh wait, I found something unexpectedly quickly, even with a long English abstract:

https://zenodo.org/record/5573719

One other point: The uranium must come from somewhere - there is also some dependency from Russia. It must be extracted, and such a process is usually quite bad in several aspects, be it uranium, fossil fuels or materials for RE such as lithium. But the latter can at least partly be recycled (theoretically with high percentage) but uranium can not.

@gretathunberg

Kernenergie und Klima

Publiziert als Diskussionsbeiträge der Scientists for Future, 9, 1–98. (Note:The article is in German, but provides a long English abstract.) ZUSAMMENFASSUNG (English further below): Angesichts der sich beschleunigenden Klimakrise wird die Bedeutung der Kernkraft, die derzeit ca. 10 % der weltweiten Stromproduktion ausmacht, für den zukünftigen Energieträgermix diskutiert. Einige Länder, internationale Organisationen, private Unternehmen sowie Forscher:innen messen der Kernenergie auf dem Weg zur Kli­ma­neutralität und zum Ende fossiler Energien eine gewisse Bedeutung bei. Dies geht auch aus Energie- und Klimaszenarien des IPCC hervor. Dagegen legen die Er­fahrun­gen mit der kommerziellen Nutzung der Kernkraft der letzten sieben Jahr­zehnte nahe, dass ein solcher Pfad mit erheblichen technischen, ökonomischen und gesell­schaftlichen Risiken verbunden ist. Der vorliegende Diskussionsbeitrag erör­tert Ar­gumente in den Bereichen „Technologie und Gefahrenpotenziale“, „Wirt­schaftlich­keit“, „zeitliche Verfügbarkeit“ sowie „Kompatibilität mit der sozial-ökolo­gischen Transformation“ und zieht dann ein Fazit. Technologie und Gefahrenpotenziale: In Kernkraftwerken sind jederzeit katastro­phale Unfälle mit großen Freisetzungen radioaktiver Schadstoffe möglich. Dies zei­gen nicht nur die Großunfälle, z. B. die Ka­ta­strophen von Tschernobyl und Fukushima, sondern auch eine Vielzahl von Un­fäl­len, die sich seit 1945 in jedem Jahrzehnt und in jeder Region, die Kernenergie nutzt, ereignet haben. Von in Planung befindlichen SMR-Reaktorkonzepten („Small Modu­lar Reactors“) ist keine wesentlich größere Zuver­lässigkeit zu erwarten. Darüber hinaus besteht permanent die Gefahr des Miss­brauchs von waffenfähigem Spaltmaterial (hochangereichertes Uran bzw. Plu­to­nium) für terroristische Zwecke oder andere Proliferation. Die Endlagerung hoch­radio­aktiver Abfälle muss aufgrund hoher Halbwertszeiten für über eine Millio­n Jahre sicher gewähr­leistet werden; die damit verbundenen Langfristrisiken sind aus heu­tiger Per­spektive nicht überschaubar und weisen zukünftigen Generationen erheb­liche Las­ten zu. Wirtschaftlichkeit: Die kommerzielle Nutzung von Kernenergie war in den 1950er Jahren ein Nebenprodukt militärischer Entwicklungen und hat seit dieser Zeit nie­mals den Sprung zu einer wettbewerbsfähigen Energiequelle geschafft. Selbst der laufende Betrieb von älteren Kernkraftwerken wird heute zunehmend unwirtschaft­lich. Laufzeitverlängerungen sind technisch und wirtschaftlich riskant. Beim Neubau von Kernkraftwerken der aktuellen 3. Generation muss mit Verlusten in Höhe meh­rerer Milliarden US-$ bzw. € gerechnet werden. Zusätzlich fallen erhebliche und der­zeit weitgehend unbe­kannte Kosten für den Rückbau von Kernkraftwerken und die Endlagerung radioak­tiver Abfälle an. Energiewirtschaftliche Analysen zeigen, dass die Einhaltung ambitio­nierter Klimaschutzziele (globale Erwärmung 1,5° bis unter 2 °C) ohne Kernenergie nicht nur möglich, sondern auch unter Berücksichtigung von Systemkosten mit erneuerbaren Energien kostengünstiger ist. Hierzu kommt, dass Unfallrisiken von Kernkraftwerken nicht versicherbar sind und Schäden daher immer sozialisiert werden müssen. Die in aktu­ellen Diskussionen genannten SMR-Konzepte („Small Modular Reactors“) und die Konzepte der sogenannten „Kernkraftwerke der 4. Generation“ (nicht-Leichtwasser-gekühlt) sind technisch unausgereift und weit von kommerziellen Einsätzen entfernt. Zeitliche Verfügbarkeit: Angesichts des stagnierenden bzw. in allen Kernkraftstaaten (außer China) rückläufigen Kernkraftwerksbaus, Planungs- und Bauzeiten von zwei Jahrzehnten (und mehr) sowie absehbar geringen technischen Innovationen kann Kernkraft in den für die Bekämpfung der Klimakrise relevanten Zeiträumen von zwei bis maximal drei Jahrzehnten keine Rolle spielen. Die Anzahl des Baubeginns von Kernkraftwerken ist bereits seit 1976 rückläufig. Aktuell befinden sich lediglich 52 Kernkraftwerke im Bau und nur wenige Länder versuchen den Einstieg in die Kern­energie. Traditionelle Hersteller wie Westinghouse (USA) und Framatome (Frank­reich) sind finanziell angeschlagen und nicht in der Lage, im nächsten Jahrzehnt eine große Anzahl an Neubauprojekten in Angriff zu nehmen. Kernkraft in der sozial-ökologischen Transformation: Die größte Herausforderung der großen Transformation, d. h. von sozial-ökologischen Reformen in Richtung zu einem gesellschaftlich gestützten zukunftsfähigen, klimaneutralen Energiesystem, liegt in der Überwindung der Widerstände („Lock-in“) des alten, von fossilen Kraftwerken dominierten Energiesystems. Kernenergie ist nicht geeignet, diesen Transforma­tionsprozess zu unterstützen, sondern blockiert diesen sogar: durch Innovations- und Investitionsblockaden. Nuklearer Wasserstoff ist weder aus technischen noch aus ökonomischen Gründen eine Option zur Steigerung der Auslastung von Kern­kraftwerken. Japan ist ein plastisches Beispiel für Transfor­mationsresistenz. In Deutschland schreitet die Atomwende zwar durch die Abschal­tung der letzten sechs Kernkraftwerke (2021 bzw. 2022) voran, jedoch sind weitere Schritte zu einem voll­ständigen Atomausstieg notwendig, u. a. die Schließung der Atomfabriken in Lingen und Gronau. Die Atomwende ist auch eine notwendige Be­dingung für eine erfolg­reiche Endlagersuche. Fazit: Im vorliegenden Diskussionsbeitrag wird eine Vielzahl von Argumenten ge­prüft und am bestehenden Stand der Forschung abgeglichen. Dabei bestätigt sich die Einschätzung der Scientists for Future aus dem Diskussionsbeitrag „Klimaver­trägliche Energieversorgung für Deutschland“ vom Juli 2021, dass Kernenergie nicht in der Lage ist, in der verbleibenden Zeit einen sinnvollen Beitrag zum Umbau zu einer klimaverträglichen Energieversorgung zu leisten. Kernkraft ist zu gefährlich, zu teuer und zu langsam verfügbar; darüber hinaus ist Kernkraft zu transformationsresis­tent, d. h. sie blockiert den notwendigen sozial-ökologischen Transformationspro­zess, ohne den ambitionierte Klimaschutzziele nicht erreichbar sind. ENGLISH: In light of the accelerating climate crisis, nuclear energy and its place in the future energy mix is being debated once again. Currently its share of global electricity ge­n­eration is about 10 percent. Some countries, international organizations, private businesses and scientists accord nuclear energy some kind of role in the pursuit of climate neutrality and in ending the era of fossil fuels. The IPCC, too, includes nuclear energy in its scenarios. On the other hand, the experience with commercial nuclear energy generation acquired over the past seven decades points to the significant technical, economic, and social risks involved. This paper reviews arguments in the areas of “technology and risks,” “economic viability,” ’timely availability,” and “com­patibility with social-ecological transformation processes.” Technology and risks: Catastro­phes involving the release of radioactive material are always a real possibility, as il­lustrated by the major accidents in Three Mile Island, Chernobyl, and Fukushima. Also, since 1945, countless accidents have occurred wherever nuclear energy has been deployed. No significantly higher reliability is to be expected from the SMRs (“small modular reactors”) that are currently at the plan­ning stage. Even modern ma­thematical techniques, such as probabilistic security analyses (PSAs), do not adequa­tely reflect important factors, such as deficient secu­rity arrangements or rare natural disasters and thereby systematically underestimate the risks. Moreover, there is the ever-present proliferation risk of weapon-grade, highly enriched uranium, and plutonium. Most spent fuel rods are stored in scarcely protected surface containers or other interim solutions, often outside proper con­tainment structures. The safe storage of highly radioactive material, owing to a half-live of individual isotopes of over a million years, must be guaranteed for eons. Even if the risks involved for future generations cannot be authoritatively determined to­day, heavy burdens are undoubtedly externalized to the future. Nuclear energy and economic efficiency: The commercial use of nuclear energy was, in the 1950s, the by-product of military programmes. Not then, and not since, has nuclear energy been a competitive energy source. Even the continued use of existing plants is not economical, while investments into third generation reactors are pro­jected to require subsidies to the tune of billions of $ or €. The experience with the development of SMR con­cepts suggests that these are prone to lead to even higher electricity costs. Lastly, there are the considerable, currently largely unknown costs involved in dismant­ling nuclear power plants and in the safe storage of radioactive waste. Detailed ana­lyses confirm that meeting ambitious climate goals (i. e. global heating of between 1.5° and below 2° Celsius) is well possible with renewables which, if system costs are consi­dered, are also considerably cheaper than nuclear energy. Given, too, that nuclear power plants are not commercially insurable, the risks inherent in their operation must be borne by society at large. The currently hyped SMRs and the so-called Generation IV concepts (not light-water cooled) are techno­logically immature and far from commercially viable. Timely availability: Given the stagnating or – with the exception of China – slowing pace of nuclear power plant construction, and considering furthermore the limited innovation potential as well as the timeframe of two decades for planning and con­struction, nuclear power is not a viable tool to mitigate global heating. Since 1976, the number of nuclear power plants construction starts is declining. Currently, only 52 nuclear power plants are being built. Very few countries are pursuing respective plans. Traditional nuclear producers, such as Westinghouse (USA) and Framatome (France) are in dire straits financially and are not able to launch a significant num­ber of new construction projects in the coming decade. It can be doubted whether Russia or China have the capacity to meet a hypothetically surging demand for nuclear en­ergy but, in any event, relying on them would be neither safe nor geopolitically de­sirable. Nuclear energy in the social-ecological transformation: The ultimate challenge of the great transformation, i. e. kicking off the socio-ecological reforms that will lead to a broadly supported, viable, climate-neutral energy system, lies in overcoming the drag (“lock-in”) of the old system that is dominated by fossil fuel interests. Yet, make no mistake, nuclear energy is of no use to support this process. In fact, it blocks it. The massive R&D investment required for a dead-end technology crowds out the devel­opment of sustainable technologies, such as those in the areas of renewables, energy storage and efficiency. Nuclear energy producers, given the competitive en­viron­ment they operate in, are incentivized to prevent – or minimize – investments in renewables. For obvious technical as well as economic reasons, nuclear hydrogen – the often-proclaimed deus ex machina – cannot enhance the viability of nuclear power plants. Japan is an exhibit A of transformation resistance. In Germany the end of the atomic era proceeds, and the last six nuclear power stations will be switched off in 2021 and 2022, but further steps are still needed, most importantly the search for a safe storage facility for radioactive waste. By way of conclusion: The present analysis reviews a whole range of arguments based on the most recent and authoritative scientific literature. It confirms the assessment of the paper Climate-friendly energy supply for Germany – 16 points of orien­tation, pub­li­shed on 22 April 2021 by Scientists for Future (doi.org/10.5281/zenodo.4409334) that nuclear energy can­not, in the short time re­maining before the climate tips, meaningfully contribute to a climate-neutral energy system. Nuclear energy is too dangerous, too expensive, and too sluggishly deploy­able to play a significant role in mitigating the climate crisis. In addition, nuclear en­ergy is an obstacle to achieving the social-ecological transfor­mation, without which ambitious climate goals are elusive.

Zenodo

@adev

Another one (German only):

https://www.bund.net/fileadmin/user_upload_bund/publikationen/atomkraft/atomkraft_Uranatlas_Faktenblatt_Russland_2022.pdf

Translation (with deepl.com) of one section as example:

"According to EURATOM, the EU sourced 20.2% of its uranium from Russia in 2020, with another 19.1% coming from Russia's ally Kazakhstan. In addition, the EU sources the raw material of the nuclear age primarily from Niger (20.3%), Canada (18.4%) and Australia (13.3%), where it contributes to the destruction of the livelihoods of indigenous peoples on whose..."

@gretathunberg

@adev

"... territories the uranium mines are located. No uranium mine is still active in the EU after the Romanian Crucea mine was shut down in November 2021. PreussenElektra also says that the German nuclear power plants still in operation are mainly powered by uranium from Russia and Kazakhstan. In Switzerland, the dependency is even more pronounced: two out of three nuclear power plants purchase uranium for fuel elements directly from the Russian state-owned Rosatom."

@gretathunberg

@Voka @gretathunberg

Sorry for the late reply on this one, I completely forget it 🙏

About the argument related to Uranium dependency to Russia: This is a straw man argument often used by anti-nuclear networks. Reality is pretty different (even close to FUD 🙂)

Uranium ressources are currently pretty evenly spread on the planet contrary to petrol or Gas [1] Several of the biggest reserves are also in democratic countries.

[1] https://world-nuclear.org/information-library/nuclear-fuel-cycle/uranium-resources/supply-of-uranium.aspx

Uranium Supplies: Supply of Uranium - World Nuclear Association

Uranium is ubiquitous on the Earth. It is a metal approximately as common as tin or zinc, and it is a constituent of most rocks and even of the sea.

@Voka @gretathunberg

Most reserves (currently known) are from Australia, Canada and Kazakhstan. Not Russia.

The fact Germany binded itself to Russia for its Uranium is more a *political* choice than anything else. They do not need to, they chose to.

France current provisioning is for instance mainly from Canada and Kazakhstan. In the past, it was Niger and Australia.

Morever an other aspects is that Uranium is not Gas. It is several factors more energy dense.

@Voka @gretathunberg

The fact it is so energy dense means provisioning is much less a problem.

Current reserves of Uranium in France are estimated to cover 10 years the entire country of consumption.

This allow to overpass most political instability without putting an entire country/contient at risk.

For comparison for Gas or petrol, storing 3 month of supply is already difficult country wide.

@Voka @gretathunberg

In Brief, Uranium mining like all minings have:

- Negative consequences for environment.
- Create corruption in poor/developping countries.
- has destructive impact.

But it is vert far from the FUD around provisioning that Greenpeace broadcast.

And it is currently much cleaner than what Germany is doing around Coal and Lignite right.

It might currently even be cleaner than the iron/copper/Si mining required for Wind/solar energy.

@adev

In my eyes, even if rewewable energy sources were currently not "cleaner" than coal or nuclear energy, they have the highest potential of becoming as clean as necessary.

Altogether, one of the most important measures - in my eyes - would be to drastically reduce resource overturn (and thus energy consumption) overall. If we did that, we would not need to prolong nuclear energy and could cut of fossils much earlier and wouldn't have to build as much renewables.

@gretathunberg

@adev

All you need is less! 😃

@gretathunberg

@Voka @gretathunberg

At Europe scale, "less" meaning "sobriety", or "energy efficiency", is part of the solution.

At the world scale, things are completely different And branding sobriety as the main solution is counterproductive.

China is running 60% coal and booming. Same India, Same Africa. Same in every developping country.

Hoping that "sobriety" will suddenly make them abort all the fossil plants they are constructing right now is utopia, nothing more.

@Voka
@gretathunberg

I disagree. Wind and solar are 100x less energy dense than nuclear, meaning you do need 100x more steel, silicium, concrete and natural space to arrive to the same energy.

You can optimize economical cost of renewable with productions means. You barely can improve their environmental cost because physics... And nobody win against physics.

@Voka
@gretathunberg

At the opposite Nuclear is already the lowest carbonated source of power available (9g/kw vs 30-40g/kw co2) and might even get lower with fuel recycling.

If we do agree that the enemy is the CO2, not the unreasonable fear of radioactivity. Then removing nuclear energy for any transition from fossil fuel is a pure waste of time. I would even add it is dangerous and counterproductive.

The world need more nuclear. Now and everywhere.

@Voka @gretathunberg

Little fix of my previous post: g/kw -> g/kwh

@adev

"The world need more nuclear. Now and everywhere."

I clearly contradict this statement. It might in some certain circumstances be the smaller evil to prolong duration of existing nuclear power plants. But not more.

This is my statement without presenting further logic and/or source-based reasoning. We already exchanged some amount of that. Don't know if it pays to invest even more energy into this discussion - but let's see who manages to further trigger the other. 😉

@gretathunberg

@adev

But nevertheless I appreciate content and ductus of this discussion.

@gretathunberg

@Voka @gretathunberg

I do appreciate too. Thank you for the calm and constructed exchange of perspectives 🙂

@adev

No need to apologize for not being active here 24/7.

I also find the necessary time and energy only sparsely and am afraid that I cannot continue this conversation all too much further.

I would not go so far as to call the Uranium "dependency" a straw argument but yes, it is not as strong as it sometimes seems. It is not the only argument, though.

@gretathunberg