Mastodawn

Kee Hinckley Jan 9, 2023

I keep seeing articles, about people trying to violently overturn election results, that use phrases like “motivated by election lies”.

They aren’t motivated by lies, they are motivated by not liking the result. Repeating the lies just makes them feel powerful because it makes them part of the grift. They think they’re fooling people.

Blaming the lies lulls us into thinking that this is an education/disinformation problem which, if addressed, will eliminate the violence.

These folks aren’t deluded. They’ve learned from their leaders that violence and lying are the route to power.

For most of my life I thought these problems could be solved by education. I no longer do. As far as I can tell, about 30% of the population believes that getting away with grifts and bullying people is proof of power and leadership that should be respected, worshiped, and emulated.

We can’t educate these folks. We can only build a society that ensures that they cannot gain control. Unfortunately, the entire human race has largely failed to do so, and we’re suffering the consequences on a planetary scale.

Every day we act as though they don’t *know* that the elections were valid, is a day we risk losing the fight for democracy, equality, and a stable environment.

@nazgul I don't think I agree. Even if the people are complicit in the lies, that's a cultural vector that can be impacted by changing the culture.

I mean, I'm not sure what other alternative there is, but the fact that these things come and go in waves shows that it's not a constant and can be affected by the surrounding culture.

The problem is that changing culture through education takes a generation, at best. You need short term mitigations, too.

Kee Hinckley Jan 9, 2023

@MudMan I’d like to believe that. I really did think that, if you could educate people well enough, it could be solved. I’m no longer sure for a couple reasons.

I think the waves are an indication not of changed values, but of times when the social structure was firm enough that people largely kept their mouth shut when they knew they couldn’t get away with it. It’s not that a new generation grew up thinking these things. It’s that once people in power made it clear it was okay to say and do this stuff, and you wouldn’t be punished, they came out of the woodwork. We can see that just in the wide variety of ages at Jan6.

There’s also no question that social media has had a huge impact in making people think they are a larger movement than they really are.

I *do* think that removing exposure to others with those views, providing exposure to multiple viewpoints and multiple cultures, early liberal education, and creating a society where there are safety nets to reduce fear, could all help. But the first three of those sound a lot like propaganda and forced community service and/or migration. We become what we are fighting. I’m already uncomfortable enough that what I’m proposing sounds an awful lot like “we need to force them back into the closet”, and that a conservative would use the exact same wording to describe how to deal with someone like me.

@nazgul @MudMan a great example of this is what Trump was allowed to get away with on the campaign trail and then during his presidency. It opened the floodgates and led to people like Santos or people like Green, Gosar, etc who openly call for sedition. Consider that just a couple of decades ago (almost) Howard Dean’s chances of gaining a nomination were derailed by a goofy scream. The norms of the past have been thrown out.

MudMan Jan 9, 2023

@nazgul Claiming that populations don't change their minds over time and simply are coaxed into not acting in their own naturally selfish impulses is, if you don't mind my saying so, an extremely American view on the issue.

Coming from a part of the world where that shift is much more dramatic (in both directions), I do find it a bit depressing, but fortunately not really true.

MudMan Jan 9, 2023

For the record, outside of the US bubble of radical "selfish free speech", liberal democracies widely establish limits to fascist apologia without much issue. Free political action, as somebody else mentioned, requires a delimitation of what political action is acceptable.

And of course there are tons of formerly fascist or totalitarian countries well adjusted to a liberal democracy. And vice versa. Which is why constant vigilance is so crucial. Democracy is not an at-rest state.

Urban Hermit Jan 9, 2023

@nazgul @MudMan I think you are right. 20% of people are actively and belligerently stupid (I define stupid as having any two of the three modern sins: ignorance, arrogance, or apathy. When at least two of three are present they lock and prevent people from correcting their mistakes for ego reasons). Another 20% of people are undecided enough to follow whatever crowd they seem to be in. So 40% of people at any one time could believe anything.

Rob Landley Jan 9, 2023

@nazgul @MudMan Pardoning Nixon was a mistake.

Louis Cyphre Jan 9, 2023

@landley @nazgul @MudMan Lincoln not hanging all of the US Confederate traitors down to the level of lieutenant as some of his advisors counseled was a mistake

Rob Landley Jan 9, 2023

@mrpinkly @nazgul @MudMan That was more Johnson than Lincoln. The first had extensive follow-up planned, the second let things slide until Grant inherited a position he had no experience with or aptitude for.

@kerileighmerritt did an excellent book, masterless men, about how the billionaires took over the South again after the civil war.

keri leigh merritt, phd Jan 9, 2023

@landley @mrpinkly @nazgul @MudMan Ty!

Louis Cyphre Jan 9, 2023

@landley @nazgul @MudMan @kerileighmerritt Thaddeus Stevens and Charles Sumner wanted to punish them. Most wanted to move on and forget the war. I will check out the book

Kee Hinckley Jan 9, 2023

@mrpinkly @landley @MudMan @kerileighmerritt

I think in more recent years societies have found a better way to deal with revolutionary-level conflicts without creating martyrs or tearing society apart, which is the truth and and reconciliation approach.

You can avoid punishment, but to do so you need stand up in court and public, and admit and take responsibility, in detail, all the things you did. Think "Jan 6th committee" but with the perpetrators forced to participate or go to jail or worse.

Victims get closure. The crime is admitted. What was done to them is made clear to everyone. And you avoid the level of punishment which could reignite the conflict.

Louis Cyphre Jan 9, 2023

@nazgul @landley @MudMan @kerileighmerritt Have spent a fair amount of time in Germany the last ten years. They had a different methodology. Has worked for 75 years. Not sure how much longer though.

Rob Landley Jan 9, 2023

@mrpinkly @nazgul @MudMan @kerileighmerritt No cultural impact outlasts living memory without fresh input.

Doomed to repeat it...

Louis Cyphre Jan 9, 2023

@landley @nazgul @MudMan @kerileighmerritt Appears that you are correct

Claire Jameson Jan 9, 2023

@nazgul @mrpinkly @landley @MudMan @kerileighmerritt How many didn’t answers subpoenas from the committee.

Rob Landley Jan 10, 2023

@nazgul @mrpinkly @MudMan @kerileighmerritt Tell me how that's going in Ukraine.

Kee Hinckley Jan 10, 2023

@landley @mrpinkly @MudMan @kerileighmerritt

Not sure how that applies. It's not a civil war or insurgency, and it's not over.

Now how they deal with collaborators afterwards might be relevant, but again, not a situation where the country is heavily split over what to do.

Rob Landley Jan 10, 2023

@nazgul @mrpinkly @MudMan @kerileighmerritt Putin thinks it is. Soviet union broke up and he's trying to put it back together. The Donbas/Crimea takeovers were disguised as insurgency. Transnistria. Mueller report about Trump receiving Russian support here (and then asking Zelazny for a "favor" as an excuse to hold back aid)...

Would you rather talk about China or Afghanistan?. MBS in Saudi Arabia? Iran? Neville Chamberlain endlessly talking with Germany was too long ago?

Rob Landley Jan 10, 2023

@nazgul @mrpinkly @MudMan @kerileighmerritt I missed your mention of "over":

https://www.politico.com/news/2022/11/02/brazil-bolsonaro-democracy-silva-00064792

Isn't it nice where we can skip to the part where we won and are no longer in danger? Let's do that more. Maybe we just need more "understanding". Didn't Germany put Hitler in jail where he wrote a book? Whatever happened to that guy...

Me, I think punching nazis works better than intellectually debating who gets to be people. The Neuremberg trials happened _after_ the beaches of Normandy.

With Bolsonaro tamed in defeat, Brazil steps back from brink

“All of Bolsonaro’s escape valves were shut off,” said one expert.

POLITICO

Kee Hinckley Jan 10, 2023

@landley @mrpinkly @MudMan @kerileighmerritt

Sorry, this came in after I wrote that.

Yes. "Over and dealing with the perpetrators" is what I was discussing.

Rob Landley Jan 10, 2023

@nazgul @mrpinkly @MudMan @kerileighmerritt History is never "over". That's not how it works.

Kee Hinckley Jan 10, 2023

@landley @mrpinkly @MudMan @kerileighmerritt

From your post history, it appears you enjoy in getting in arguments where you keep changing the topic. Even with people who are experts in the field discussed (which I most certainly am not).

If you have something to say about Truth and Reconciliation commissions as it relates to Jan 6, come back tomorrow. The conversation is over for now.

Kee Hinckley Jan 10, 2023

@landley @mrpinkly @MudMan @kerileighmerritt

It's not a solution to an existing conflict--which all of your examples describe. Nor is it a general solution to punishing perpetrators. It's designed for a very specific situation where a normal court system would not work for various reasons--inability to get the complete truth, risk of further civil war, etc.. It's been used in Bolivia, Argentina, Chile, South Africa, Congo, Sierra Leone, Australia, Canada, and other countries.

You're talking about something completely different. And you're doing so in a way that makes me think you have a bone to pick, but I have no idea what it is, or what it has to do with what I said. I suggest you read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth_commission and then if you have a relevant point, make it.

Truth commission - Wikipedia

Rob Landley Jan 10, 2023

@nazgul @mrpinkly @MudMan @kerileighmerritt I keep watching people try to "move on" from Jan 6. I don't see the difference between the comission you're describing and the "House Committee on the Jan 6 Attack" being a bunch of television without indictments. Merrick Garland is waiting out multiple statutes of limitations, but as long as we get enough documentaries about what happened it's fine?

The Neuremberg trials were not about asking the nazis to explain themselves. They hung people.

Jhooper Jan 9, 2023

@nazgul @MudMan Education is not a single quantity, like water in a cup. It's a multi-faceted and diverse accumulation of knowledge and experience. We need to move away from education a "remember and regurgitate" concept and into an engagement of thought and exercise in strengthening one's own abilities.

While I think education is PART of the solution, we also need compassion and empathy use it right, and the fortitude and endurance to ensure consequences exist for bad actors.

BrainPilgrim Jan 10, 2023

@nazgul @MudMan I see part of this problem as the way our criminal justice system is set up.

It relies too much on people fearing consequences to their law-abiding life. The criminal mind doesn’t have one. We've let white-collar crime become simply the cost of doing business.

We have more grifters and con artists than brown shirts beating people in the street. But it still wrecks lives.

With social pressure they go back in the woodwork. And we prosecute the people who deliberately spread lies instead of news. For one thing, the logo needs to have the word PARODY.

To warn people.

Kee Hinckley Jan 11, 2023

@brainpilgrim @MudMan Can you imagine how much more funds this country would have if it cracked down on white collar crime? Tax evasion alone would save us billions. I don’t even care if they go to jail. Just take back what they stole, plus 90% of their wealth.

Laces Jan 9, 2023

@MudMan @nazgul They're anti education though. College is woke indoctrination centers. Public schools are evil communism. Information is Fake News. It's pretty clear that they know they are in the wrong- they simply don't care.

MudMan Jan 9, 2023

Absolutely.

To be clear, I'm not advocating for laissez-faire here, you absolutely have to stand up to these behaviours. As you say, in order to change the culture through education you at least need to take education out of the table as being debatable or based on indoctrination.

But not educating upcoming generations against irrational totalitarianism is not a better path forward, and not an option at all, frankly.