sj_zeroI'm of two minds in this regard. On one hand, the people who are pushing for "a growing economy" usually are worried about rich people's yacht money. OTOH, the economy makes things like the ways we feed ourselves, and the way we heat our homes, and other stuff we need to not die.
It seems like too many people are focused on the evils of the former without considering the evils of harming the latter. Having to choose between freezing to death and starving to death isn't a good place to be.
JasmineExcept for the fact that people are already doing that. Capitalism is cruel and barbaric. Our species survived 295,000 years prior to the advent of money. 5,000 short years later, capitalism has destroyed our planet. Money is the root of all evil and the cause of our extinction.
midwayIf you think capitalism is cruel and barbaric, try talking to someone who lived under communism.
Money is simply an efficient means of exchange. That’s it. Money doesn’t cause anything. People’s pursuit of money can cause all sorts of things. Sure, we could go back to bartering. I hope you have skills to produce things that your local stores need though. Otherwise, you’re SOL. That’s what money actually is. It’s just a means to take unmatched skills and allow people to trade.
Money is simply an efficient means of exchange. That’s it. Money doesn’t cause anything. People’s pursuit of money can cause all sorts of things. Sure, we could go back to bartering. I hope you have skills to produce things that your local stores need though. Otherwise, you’re SOL. That’s what money actually is. It’s just a means to take unmatched skills and allow people to trade.
@sj_zero @dbattistella @MysticaRose
Call me any name you like…but I’m not wrong. Money is neutral. Neither good not evil. It’s just an efficiency tool. Try living in the days before money. You wouldn’t like it.
Call me any name you like…but I’m not wrong. Money is neutral. Neither good not evil. It’s just an efficiency tool. Try living in the days before money. You wouldn’t like it.
zemsgram@midway @dbattistella @MysticaRose @sj_zero the reference was specifically to the economy which very specifically favors the wealthy at the expense of everyone else.
@MysticaRose @sj_zero @dbattistella @zemsgram
And what specific economy is that? One that now spends over a trillion dollars a year on welfare programs? One that still draws economic migrants from all over?
The wealthy will always have advantages. But to say that the US economy only favors the wealthy is just factually wrong. You can certainly advocate for spending more on the poor if you like but to say their interests are not considered is simply wrong.
And what specific economy is that? One that now spends over a trillion dollars a year on welfare programs? One that still draws economic migrants from all over?
The wealthy will always have advantages. But to say that the US economy only favors the wealthy is just factually wrong. You can certainly advocate for spending more on the poor if you like but to say their interests are not considered is simply wrong.
Sibrosan@MysticaRose @midway @dbattistella @sj_zero
Recourse to ad hominems is almost always an indication of lack of sensible arguments.
@midway So basically you equate “the economy” with capitalism. Do you subscribe to the idea that raising interest rates and also raising the unemployment rate is the only fix for inflation? And do you also support the outlawing of homelessness while the wealthiest buy houses as investments intended to increase their wealth? Capitalism that favors the wealthy at the expense of the poor really is no better than communism that favors the party elite over everyone else.
@zemsgram
I sincerely hope you get your straw men wholesale because at the rate you use them it would be a shame to pay retail for them.
Capitalism is an economic system. Our economy is based on it but has deviated quite a bit from it.
Slowing down the economy is certainly one way to handle inflation. Massively cutting government spending (which was a huge factor in this current inflation increase would also help and keep it away longer term. Traditionally raising interest rates had been how we have tried to slow down the economy which was running on a sugar high of free money for a very long time. The problem is that w can’t raise rates high enough to really tame it because the government would go broke. The current rate hikes are an attempt to try and slow things down some and hope we can wait it out. It might work. But rate hikes alone can’t do it. Having a gridlocked federal government may help slow down the spending which will also help. I hope we can do that but I’m not certain if it. Time will tell.
As for the rest of your rant I have made no statements to those points and, to be honest, they just look like talking points.
As for communism being no better than here. Tell that to the folks from places like Cuba who risk their lives to try and get here. Tell that to the folks who risk their lives to cross out boarders every day. Funny how I don’t see poor people going the other direction. Wonder why that is? Maybe the system we have here isn’t so bad compared to the alternatives. I don’t need to have a theoretical conversation about that. People are voting with not just their feet but their lives. I presume they are doing this for good and rational reasons.
I sincerely hope you get your straw men wholesale because at the rate you use them it would be a shame to pay retail for them.
Capitalism is an economic system. Our economy is based on it but has deviated quite a bit from it.
Slowing down the economy is certainly one way to handle inflation. Massively cutting government spending (which was a huge factor in this current inflation increase would also help and keep it away longer term. Traditionally raising interest rates had been how we have tried to slow down the economy which was running on a sugar high of free money for a very long time. The problem is that w can’t raise rates high enough to really tame it because the government would go broke. The current rate hikes are an attempt to try and slow things down some and hope we can wait it out. It might work. But rate hikes alone can’t do it. Having a gridlocked federal government may help slow down the spending which will also help. I hope we can do that but I’m not certain if it. Time will tell.
As for the rest of your rant I have made no statements to those points and, to be honest, they just look like talking points.
As for communism being no better than here. Tell that to the folks from places like Cuba who risk their lives to try and get here. Tell that to the folks who risk their lives to cross out boarders every day. Funny how I don’t see poor people going the other direction. Wonder why that is? Maybe the system we have here isn’t so bad compared to the alternatives. I don’t need to have a theoretical conversation about that. People are voting with not just their feet but their lives. I presume they are doing this for good and rational reasons.
Bob Jamieson@midway @dbattistella @MysticaRose @sj_zero Capitalism is not about a means of exchange. That is money, tokens, animal hides, shells, whatever people have used to facilitate barter. Capitalism is offering shares in an enterprise in order for those engaging in the enterprise to become very rich. In certain limited circumstances it can be useful under strict controls. It is the antithesis of communism where for the most part possessions are held in common. You refer to totalitarianism.
Capitalism is about private control of property, including companies which can be done with shares whether privately sold or publicly sold. This allows companies to raise capital and allows capital to flow to companies based on what people want. It does offer a chance but not a guarantee of getting rich.
Communism doesn’t use a means of exchange at all. Ideally everything is freely given based on need. However in practice everything is allocated by the state which must be totalitarian in order to enforce their rules. If people can’t own anything they produce they have to be made to work by force for free. It’s ironic that the Communist Manifesto calls for workers to rise up to break free of their chains when in reality it makes people literal slaves of the state.
You can dislike capitalism to your heart’s content but history has shown that people who have actually lived under communism will risk their lives to flee to capitalist countries. The Berlin Wall was built to keep people in. The US has to build walls to keep out. That is quite telling.
Communism doesn’t use a means of exchange at all. Ideally everything is freely given based on need. However in practice everything is allocated by the state which must be totalitarian in order to enforce their rules. If people can’t own anything they produce they have to be made to work by force for free. It’s ironic that the Communist Manifesto calls for workers to rise up to break free of their chains when in reality it makes people literal slaves of the state.
You can dislike capitalism to your heart’s content but history has shown that people who have actually lived under communism will risk their lives to flee to capitalist countries. The Berlin Wall was built to keep people in. The US has to build walls to keep out. That is quite telling.
Astrid den Distel@midway @dbattistella @MysticaRose @sj_zero Capitalism pur sang is just as cruel. It just does not work without any limiting tunes and entities.
Just like the other ideologies don't work on itself. They are models, not a workable reality.
Just like the other ideologies don't work on itself. They are models, not a workable reality.
@dbattistella @MysticaRose @sj_zero @tureldriet
I never claimed any system was perfect. Any system involving people at scale will have issues.
That being said far more people when given a choice choose systems more aligned to capitalism than communism. History has shown this quite clearly.
It’s fair to argue about what tweaks we should make to a capitalist based system. You may want more, I may want less. Those are value based arguments and values are subjective. But communism belongs in a dumpster fire. You are starting from a ridiculous premise that doesn’t work at scale.
I never claimed any system was perfect. Any system involving people at scale will have issues.
That being said far more people when given a choice choose systems more aligned to capitalism than communism. History has shown this quite clearly.
It’s fair to argue about what tweaks we should make to a capitalist based system. You may want more, I may want less. Those are value based arguments and values are subjective. But communism belongs in a dumpster fire. You are starting from a ridiculous premise that doesn’t work at scale.