Mastodawn

Nick Jan 5, 2023

In a couple of different places on Mastodon this week I’ve seen people saying something to the effect of “what does visible alt text matter, it’s for screen readers.”

Here are just a few scenarios why people might want to view alt text visually:

1. “I made the post and I want to double check the alt text I wrote.”
2. “I did not make the post but I want to learn how other people write alt text so I can write better descriptions.”
3. “I’m having trouble making sense of the image but I think a written description would help.”
4. “My vision is enough to read text at my preferred font size but not in a tiny screenshot with jpeg compression.”
5. “This is what works best for me because of reasons I don’t want to get into.”

Accessibility is for everyone. Try not to make assumptions.

Katerina Marchán Jan 4, 2023

@arjache I think it's understated how much rich context can be added in alt text too, tbh, which can directly benefit everyone. xkcd obviously took this too far by not actually describing the images themselves, but there's something in between that enriches us all!

Richard Barrell Jan 6, 2023

@zkat @arjache xkcd has both title set to the joke text *and* he also sets alt. Alas he sets alt to just the title of the comic, not a description of it.

it's unfortunately confusing that the thing people *call* the "alt text" on webcomics is actually the title attribute, not the alt.

explainxkcd has people writing decent image descriptions for xkcd strips.

I think oglaf's author sets both alt= and title= to 2 different jokes on each strip. I've know of no other comic putting jokes in both.

Richard Barrell Jan 6, 2023

@zkat @arjache Also shout out to https://white-noise-comic.com for being one of extremely few comics I've seen actually take visual accessibility seriously. I can't remember if there's alt text on the img tag itself but the author posts prose that matches the contents of the image under every strip. For the purpose of practical accessibility for a webcomic this is IME way better than using the alt attribute.

White Noise - Free Palestine.

Richard Barrell Jan 6, 2023

@zkat @arjache a couple reasons I like that White Noise has a separate transcription not in an alt attribute. One is it's visible to everybody, including people who don't have assistive tech set up. Another is it has paragraphs in it, which I don't think you can do in an alt attribute because that's just a string.

Rachel Stantz Jan 6, 2023

@0x2ba22e11 @zkat yeah, way back when I was doing web comics, I made a point of including well formatted transcriptions where you click Show Transcript and they showed up inline on the page. As you note, it was much easier to format properly that way than an alt tag. But it meant I was always maintaining my own comic software because nothing else supported it. Oh No Robot provides a similar service but it’s more focused around indexing.

just adrienne Jan 7, 2023

@0x2ba22e11 @zkat @arjache If the description is long, people should really be using the "longdesc" attribute and describing the text in markup somewhere instead (longdesc takes a URI, which can be on the same page or on a different page)

just adrienne Jan 7, 2023

@0x2ba22e11 @zkat @arjache (not applicable to Mastodon, obviously, but relevant to the digression into webcomics.)

ChuffMeister Jan 6, 2023

@0x2ba22e11 @zkat @arjache that’s bloody marvellous thank you for the direct.

FiXato Jan 8, 2023

@0x2ba22e11 a while ago I spent some time describing the second "Jon" comic by Gale Galligan as the original didn't include image descriptions, and I liked the comic so much that I felt it was worth the effort to describe it so that others might be able to enjoy it too.
The process sure was more labour intensive than I'd originally anticipated, but I'd like to think I did a decent job: https://fixato.org/projects/described_for_you/jon2.html
I'm sure the HTML itself could be made more accessible, and ideally each page is accompanied by the actual images, which I skipped because I didn't want to hotlink them without the author's permission. I did link them the page via Twitter, but never got a response unfortunately.
@zkat @arjache

jon 2

Jon 2 2018, 19 pagesSelf-publishedA second Garfield fancomic considering the life of Jon Arbuckle, cartoonist. Buy the mini! Previous Next

Gale Galligan

Anna Nicholson Jan 6, 2023

@zkat @arjache Randall Munroe uses title text (a different HTML attribute) for the xkcd mouseovers, so gets a pass 😉

I don’t feel that using alt text to add extra information is ideal: (a) people who rely on alt text (screenreader users and others) can’t filter out the extra info; and (b) people who don’t need the alt text probably won’t see the extra info 🤔

Included Middle Jan 5, 2023

@arjache I am frequently happy for alt text that adds context to images or explains jokes, but I do wish my client app did not display the alt text over the image in a non-dismissible way.

George Jan 5, 2023

@includedmiddle do you have an example? Im wondering how my mastodon client handles alt text

tomorrow's avery Jan 5, 2023

@arjache also it's nice to be able to check if the image is described

nicki xaphania mouse 🐁Jan 5, 2023

@arjache let's not forget, especially relevant on fedi - "the image isn't loading because of network/CDN/other technical issues"

or, "the client i'm using on my 1987 acorn archimedes doesn't support in line images"

Rachel Stantz Jan 5, 2023

@xaphania fediverse to fidonet bridge when

Ahimsa Jan 5, 2023

@xaphania @arjache Thanks, I was just going to add this one!

(the image not loading - not the specific client/system example!)

Moon joy Jan 5, 2023

@arjache I did a little poll on this recently and almost all of the hundreds of sighted people who answered said that they got something out of the alt text.

Also, not everyone with sight loss who might benefit from a screenreader has access to one (or has the skills/ability to use it). And trying to say it should be hidden away feels really gross to me. :/ I'm glad I haven't seen that, I probably wouldn't react well!

Rachel Stantz Jan 5, 2023

@bright_helpings Yeah, I definitely think part of the desire to keep alt text hidden is that some people just don’t want to be reminded that accessibility features exist.

Chaz Brenchley Jan 5, 2023

@bright_helpings @arjache - this, yeah. I really enjoy alt text.

Josiah Mannion Jan 6, 2023

@ChazBrenchley @bright_helpings @arjache I'm *genuinely* enjoying what *writing* alt text reveals to me about the subtext of my own photos. It's not that I've never thought, even thought deeply, about it. But in the process of taking a photo, that can only occur in a flash (pun not originally intended), in background. Bringing it out & having to put words to it without just saying, "This is meaning," that is, still leaving interpretation open, is super cool.

Chaz Brenchley Jan 6, 2023

@Josiah_Mannion @bright_helpings @arjache - this, yes. Absolutely. And what other people choose to say about their images, it's like a whole new level of conversation within the work.

Sylv Jan 5, 2023

@arjache also, Alt text can help you understand the context of an image, or what the poster found important in it.

Pattacakek Jan 5, 2023

@arjache I have added text to several images that I’ve posted, but it doesn’t show up after I’ve posted it. Is that what is meant to happen, or am I doing something wrong?

｜霜の狼｜人面獣心」🐺❄️Jan 5, 2023

@pattacakek @arjache Try hovering over the image. Or if you're on mobile, pop the image fullscreen and long-press it (doesn't work on the preview in the post, unfortunately).

Pattacakek Jan 5, 2023

@frostwolf @arjache
Thank you for your help. It works on my PC but not on my iphone. maybe it's an #iphone thing.

Sumocat 🐈‍⬛Jan 5, 2023

@pattacakek @frostwolf @arjache
Official iPhone app doesn’t have a path to #AltText, but web app does. Need to tap to view photo, then long press to pull up the menu. Text is displayed above the menu options.

｜霜の狼｜人面獣心」🐺❄️Jan 5, 2023

@Sumocat @pattacakek @arjache The "official" app /doesn't even show alt text/?? What.

｜霜の狼｜人面獣心」🐺❄️Jan 5, 2023

@Sumocat @pattacakek @arjache (we've always used web on both mobile and desktop, it works great on mobile and you don't need an app at all unless you want push notifications I guess)

Pattacakek Jan 5, 2023

@frostwolf @Sumocat @arjache
I opened mastadon on a web page on my iphone and it worked.
#Mastadon encourages people to use alt text, but being able to see alt text is not available on iphone. Anyone know why?

｜霜の狼｜人面獣心」🐺❄️Jan 5, 2023

@pattacakek @Sumocat @arjache 'Cause the "official" app is crap; just about any real app will work loads better (as will the web UI).

Web or a normal app will also get you the local/federated timelines! Technically the "official" app has local these days, but it's intentionally hidden. Feels like Gargron's trying to kill our communities.

｜霜の狼｜人面獣心」🐺❄️Jan 5, 2023

@pattacakek @Sumocat @arjache (also by the way if you want an app feel without having to go find something else, you can actually add the website to your home screen as a PWA! Works on iOS, and even lets you have multiple accounts with multiple PWAs, last we tried. Android shares cookies between PWAs though.)

Sumocat 🐈‍⬛Jan 5, 2023

@pattacakek @frostwolf @arjache alt text is intended for people who cannot see it. I assume it’s readable by the device with the correct accessibility settings.

｜霜の狼｜人面獣心」🐺❄️Jan 5, 2023

@Sumocat @pattacakek @arjache Bah.

Alt text is intended for people who need alt text. It's not "only for Those Disabled People".

We use alt text all the fucking time.

｜霜の狼｜人面獣心」🐺❄️Jan 5, 2023

@Sumocat @pattacakek @arjache ... which is actually what the OP is about, heh! *waves paw upthread*

Sumocat 🐈‍⬛Jan 5, 2023

@frostwolf @pattacakek @arjache It’s really just a starter app. Keep in mind, we are at a non-profit run by volunteers. There’s no venture capital backing this project.

Pattacakek Jan 5, 2023

@Sumocat @frostwolf @arjache
Thank you, good point.

Rachel Stantz Jan 5, 2023

@pattacakek You might want to check with a different Mastodon client! Often they will have a little Alt button on the image that shows alt text. Or, if you have any web development experience, you could also examine the image element itself on the web.

Pattacakek Jan 5, 2023

@arjache any suggestions on which app?

Kate Bowles Jan 6, 2023

@pattacakek @arjache Toot! and Metatext apps both make adding and reading image descriptions (alt text) easy on iPhone. Minor flaw: Toot! will show very long descriptions as a transparent layer over the image. So writing out the whole text of a screenshot can trigger this problem. Do it anyway, just be ready for double vision.

Pattacakek Jan 6, 2023

@kate @arjache
Thank you, you have to pay for Toot so got Metatext.
I was getting really frustrated because I couldn't even sign in.
Then I realized (embarrassed) I was spelling Mastodon wrongly.

Sarah Jan 6, 2023

On Android Fedilab makes seeing alt text very easy when you open an image full-size.

When you're posting, it also gives you a little yellow triangle alert symbol when you attach an image reminding you to add a description.

@kate
@pattacakek @arjache

Stardust Jan 5, 2023

@arjache I'm sighted and love alt text because of the people that put extra effort into descriptions or that give extra context. The alt text allowance is longer than the post character limit on many (most?) instances, and some people use their image description as an extension of the post itself.

Elena ``of Valhalla''Jan 5, 2023

@arjache

6. “I have no clue what's happening in this picture, but the alt text explains it”
6a. “there are famous people in the picture and I guess I would be expected to recognise them, but I don't”
7. “I want to read the jokes people add while describing the pictures”

Michael Bethke Jan 5, 2023

@valhalla @arjache
I need to up my game.

Hackhörnchen Jan 6, 2023

@valhalla @arjache 8. I can see the picture just fine but there's a lot going on and I'm curious what's most important to the author.
9. There's yummy food in the picture and I hope they list some of the ingredients in the image description so I can make that dish, too.

sabik Feb 15, 2023

@valhalla
@arjache
6b. "there are locally-famous people in the picture and I'm on the other side of the planet"

kelbot ◖⎚∠⎚◗Jan 5, 2023

@arjache Also, I browse the fediverse in the terminal on low power computers a lot and seeing the alt text lets me know whether its worth trying to load it.

m0xEE Jan 6, 2023

@kelbot
I've been using tut a lot recently, I really like it even when using a graphics-capable machine. And I can't agree more! Sometimes seeing a link to png or jpeg isn't incentive enough to open the image viewer. Alt texts help a lot. Of course you can put the description in the post text and I think that's the least most should do, but alt text is more appropriate for that.
@arjache

lertsenem Jan 6, 2023

@m0xee @kelbot @arjache Same here! So nice to find tut users. :)

George Jan 5, 2023

@arjache saw this, and thought I should add alt text to my last image post, went to edit it and the app says "record not found" whenever I hit the save button.

Hope that gets fixed

undead enby of the apocalypse Jan 5, 2023

@arjache also “my internet connection is too bad to load images, but I can see the alt text”

quartz Jan 5, 2023

@arjache more reasons,

people on slow/capped internet connections that don't want to waste bandwidth.

a place to read another explanation of the post if you don't get it from the image.

or my really specific example from today, I made an image based post where the image failed to properly upload, but people still found it funny because they could read the alt text and still understand what it was

Daniel Jan 5, 2023

@arjache Exactly! 1, 3, and 5 for me.

｜霜の狼｜人面獣心」🐺❄️Jan 5, 2023

@arjache "Images aren't loading right now".

Skyler Blue Jan 5, 2023

@arjache huge Retweet on “Accessibility is for everyone”. I use subtitles wherever possible despite being fully hearing just because it works for me.

Skyler Blue Jan 5, 2023

@arjache lol, retoot is the word I’m looking for, I think.

Non-Canon Homophobic Neopets NPC Jan 5, 2023

@arjache it's much appreciated if I'm on my phone and it's mostly text but formatted very wide so I'd be scrolling side to side constantly if I'm zoomed in close enough to read it easily

highly principled invertebrate Jan 5, 2023

@arjache I get censory/light & color overloaded so I often look at alt-text when I'm having a flare in my osteoarthritis pain and thusly use those to help me focus better on the image components, as an option not mentioned above. And there are definitely others still. Alt-text being that important & widely used.

always tired (moved to chaos)Jan 5, 2023

@arjache visual processing disorders exist too, analogous to auditory processing disorder

Bryan Wright Jan 5, 2023

@arjache I love reading other people's alt text, and I enjoy writing captions for my own pictures.

I'm embarrassed to say, though, that I sometimes boost posts that don't have alt text, without thinking about it. I wish there were a setting that would remind me when I click "boost" on these.