50 years ago, the harbor of New York City was a sewer, filled with human trash and pollutants
But congress passed the Clean Water Act and it helped enormously, so …
… today wildlife has staged a remarkable comeback, and the water quality is high. They’ve seen humpback whales in the Hudson River one mile from Times Square, and there’s a thousand breeding pairs of heron
Smart ecological legislation works
Yeah, good question -- what's the ratio of "getting it wrong" to "getting it right" with legislation?
Part of the problem is that in any society, there'll be disagreements -- some who think the legislation personally screwed them, others who are like no dude it helped many others
I doubt the companies who were saving a ton of money by dumping untreated waste into the river *liked* the Clean Water Act
@clive Neighbourhood costs are I think always wrong, from an ethical point of view.
The question is whether legislature can deal with this, or the wide range of other ecological issues? and can it, upon recognizing an issue, produce legislation which actually has the intended effect?
Overall, are we better off with legislation, or worse off? more to the point, how can we even tell, given how complex the world is?
We need a mechanism which works overall and can be *proved* to be working.
@MarkBrigham @clive That last sentence is a bit "belling the cat". It's a great sentiment, but how?
I may be wrong, but to my eye there is an underlying ethical principle which cuts across the capitalism or regulation and so on.
Everything must be voluntary and well-informed, except in self-defence.
You cannot force others to do thing, nor can you trick or deceive them into acting, unless you must be act in self-defence, in which case all bets are off.
@MarkBrigham @clive Whenever we talk about the ills of anything - regulation, capitalism, let's say for contract communism, or racism, or what-have-you - although I may be wrong, to my eye, in the end, it all comes down to something being done which is either being forced on people, or people are being deceive into it.
Neighbour effects, which would here be pollutive industries, are an example. Companies dumping waste into river water are forcing their costs onto others, without their consent.
@MarkBrigham @clive The issue is one of freedom. I find if I ask people if they approve of freedom, they do, but if I ask what freedom is, they cannot say.
I may be wrong, but that ethic - everything must be voluntary and well-informed, except in self-defence - I think is the actual definition of freedom.
To the extent you must act because you are forced, or deceived, you are not free.
We’ve seen what happens when everything in the capitalist marketplace is voluntary: businesses monopolize & price gouge; abuse & endanger their underpaid (& unpaid) workers; and pollute like crazy.
Regulate away the worst abuses of capitalism (& enforce those regs) and big biz still finds a way to make trillions of dollars. They just do so without killing us.
@MarkBrigham @clive Speaking for myself, the only monopolies I have problems with are Governments, as I avoid other monopolies like the plague, but there are occasions when you cannot avoid Government.
Whenever I have to interact with them, to get something mandatory performed, it's hell on wheels. It can take *years* to get a simple task done.
Next worst are large monopolies (Microsoft, Google), then large normal companies (telcos), and after that life is pretty much okay.
@MarkBrigham @clive I would add also, to echo you first statement, we're seen what happens when Government are unfettered and do what they want to do - Russia, right now, death, rape, mutilation, murder, nuclear threats, devastation on the largest scale.
The cure appears to be more in need to regulation than the illness, much as both require solutions.
In fact, it gets back to freedom. All of this is objectionable, because it violates freedom. It is forced upon people, without their consent.
Clive Thompson
Max Ganz II 🇺🇦
Mark