@pkrugman Also his cars suck and keep trying to murder their owners.

Eight-car Thanksgiving pileup blamed on Tesla “Full Self-Driving” software
https://arstechnica.com/cars/2022/12/eight-car-thanksgiving-pileup-blamed-on-tesla-full-self-driving-software/

A Tesla driver watched in horror as another Tesla burst into flames after hitting a barrier
https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-driver-watched-in-horror-tesla-crashed-burst-into-flames-2022-12

@sashafox @pkrugman

Truth: EVs are *much much* safer than gasoline cars when it comes to fires. Beta testing FSD on real streets is dumb, tho where are state legs on that?

Musk is an evil fuck, but claiming EVs set themselves on fire at anywhere even approaching the rate that fossil fueled vehicles do is just Big Oil propaganda.

Don’t let that evil fuck destroy your judgment and perspective.

EVs: *great*
Musk: Terrible

Source: https://www.kbb.com/car-news/study-electric-vehicles-involved-in-fewest-car-fires.

@numbcat9 @sashafox @pkrugman "EVs are *much much* safer than gasoline cars when it comes to fires."

If you exclude the Teslas, yes.

@orc @sashafox @pkrugman

you are stating something as fact that the available evidence does not support.

Teslas: ~5 per billion miles driven

All vehicles: ~56 per billion miles driven

https://www.nfpa.org/-/media/Files/News-and-Research/Fire-statistics-and-reports/US-Fire-Problem/osvehiclefires.pdf

I mean I guess Tesla could’ve misstated by a factor of 10 but then they’d only be average.

You’re not speaking from a position of facts. That doesn’t help anyone.

Musk is a fucking dick, don’t let him make you take leave of your senses!

@numbcat9 @orc @pkrugman I don't think anyone is saying that electric vehicles are the problem. It's that Teslas are bad. They're poorly put together. They are actively dangerous because they will do things like turn into oncoming traffic and not brake for children.

Teslas do things like automatically lock all the doors and windows during a fire and turn off manual control for the locks so the driver is trapped inside. After the car took control and drove into a wall.

That's why people are saying they're not safe.

Everyone here thinks electric cars are better than gas powered cars.

@sashafox @orc @pkrugman

The available data do not support your assertion, and I would eagerly welcome data that did. I’m perfectly happy to be wrong. But you’ve provided no data to back your assertion. I’ve linked mine.

Bag on Musk. He’s a shithead who deserves what he gets.

It seems I am going to have to accept that Musk haters are going to negatively affect the overall EV market and hope I’m wrong about that.

@numbcat9 @orc @pkrugman You're only looking at vehicle fires. I"m saying that is leaving out the issues with Teslas actively attempting to murder their owners.

For the 4th time, nothing about this is representative of electric vehicles. It's that Musk is doing a bad job manufacturing Teslas because he keeps trying to cheap out on production and keeps promising features they can't deliver, and putting out a dangerous substitute instead.

@sashafox @orc @pkrugman

Look I can tell you’re not available to incorporating new information but I urge you to watch the movie Tucker to understand what’s going on with Tesla and EVs broadly.

Musk is an awful, execrable person. Please focus on that instead of unintentionally doing favors for Big Auto and Big Oil.

But more importantly, do whatever the heck you want. I’ve said as much substantive stuff as I’m going to.

@numbcat9 @orc @pkrugman Also the "big auto" complaint seems weird to me because like, all of those companies are moving over their production to electric vehicles in the future.

It doesn't make sense to think they would want to undermine confidence in their own products. Most big car companies are planning to be fully electric over the next 10 - 15 years.
https://www.forbes.com/wheels/news/automaker-ev-plans/

@sashafox @orc @pkrugman That’s why they have folks like you focused exclusively on Teslas. They’re hoping people won’t notice the Bolt recall.

No US independent auto manufacturer has survived since Chrysler entered the market a century ago. This did not happen by accident.

@sashafox @orc @pkrugman

The group we were talking about: Big Auto. Generally viewed as Ford, GM, and Chrysler although really that’s a European company now, made up of a merged Fiat, Peugeot, and Chrysler. That doesn’t make it better tho.

@numbcat9 @orc @pkrugman Why would they be trying to demonize electric cars when they're all electric car producers?

Doesn't it seem more rational that Elon's habit of drawing attention to himself and lying about everything have caught up to him, rather than believing anyone would need to do any work to make him look bad?

Like, he just took over the company, pushed out the founders, and is trying to manufacture the product so cheaply that it's incredibly flawed.

That doesn't require any conspiracy. It's just the actions of a shitty person with too much money.

@sashafox @orc @pkrugman

They aren’t. Big Auto are trying to demonize Tesla, a competitor they want to destroy.

Big Oil wants people to be scared of EVs broadly. They won’t survive it if everyone buys EVs. Fuels for pax vehicles & trucks are just too large a segment of their market. It’s existential for them.

Things get complicated IRL. Lotta knowledge to hold on to just to try to understand the market even a little.

@sashafox @orc @pkrugman and if you’re over here claiming that suggesting Big Auto and Big Oil don’t fuck with all kinds of political stuff, again I’m going to request your data.

Mine are court cases & actual historical events, like what they did to Tucker, or how they refused to put seatbelts or airbags in cars until they were forced to in 1983. They’d resisted since 1967. https://www.nytimes.com/1983/06/25/us/high-court-backs-airbags-mandate.html

@sashafox @orc @pkrugman

They aren’t accurate, as I have demonstrated with evidence.

And even when they are, as I have also demonstrated with evidence, they’re focused on Tesla to the exclusion of other car companies with the same problems. I’ve shown you this repeatedly.

@numbcat9 @orc @pkrugman You have actually failed to demonstrate that. You have found reasons to brush them away.

You seem to think Tesla is a good company that is being attacked by evil companies.

Tesla is evil. You seem to believe that since they make electric cars they can't be evil.

That is silly.

@sashafox @orc @pkrugman

Since I addressed your concerns head-on with links and everything, please at least have the courtesy to explain why you think my arguments don’t disprove this. Right now we’re having a meta-discussion and those suck.

@numbcat9 @orc @pkrugman As I've said, safety concerns go far beyond simply the rate of fires compared to gas powered cars.

The criminal investigation into the cars killing people, for example.

@sashafox @orc @pkrugman

Sorry I need to go re-read the stories about Cassandra. Bye now!

@numbcat9 @orc @pkrugman Ok.

See if you see any similarities between her and the woman telling you "Go with the electric car that isn't actively trying to murder you" that you are ignoring.

@sashafox @orc @pkrugman

I am not in the market for a Tesla. Not even a little bit. Come now. Don’t make assumptions. I drive a Volt and love it. My next needs to be all-electric and rated for towing, which isn’t available yet in the non-luxury market.

@numbcat9 @orc @pkrugman So why are you defending Tesla when it comes to things like worker safety regulations or their horrendous safety record on self driving cars?

When I mentioned the Volt your first comment was to claim they represent a serious fire risk. That doesn't make sense.

@sashafox @orc @pkrugman

The Bolt has the risk. Not the Volt. Bee not Vee. They actually designed the Volt and marketed it specifically for the Active Cooling System for the battery pack.

And no, I have done none of those things. You’ve presented them as things Tesla is doing that the other companies aren’t. I’ve pointed out many other auto companies also use those same suppliers. All of them are wrong for this.

Are we into personal attacks now?

@numbcat9 @orc @pkrugman These problems are not the same.

"The Tesla Autopilot crash numbers are far higher than those of similar driver-assistance systems from General Motors and Ford. Tesla has reported 516 crashes from July 2021 through November 2022, while Ford reported seven and GM two ... To be sure, Tesla has far more vehicles equipped with driver-assist systems than the competition ... All else equal, that would imply Tesla ought to have a NHTSA-reported crash total of 70 since last summer to be comparable with Ford’s rate. Instead, Tesla reported 516 crashes."
https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2022-12-27/tesla-stopped-reporting-autopilot-safety-statistics-online

@sashafox @orc @pkrugman

yep. it’s why **none of them** should be testing on public roadways. But in December of last year we find that 108 of them were. Not unique to Tesla. Yet you’ve suggested that these things *are* unique, or worse, because of Musk. He is a fuck. A miserable piece of shit.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/23/business/tesla-self-driving-regulations.html

@sashafox @orc @pkrugman

Here’s an *actual* example of Musk’s intransigence in meddling with Tesla:

Musk *refuses* to add LiDAR assistance to their AI’s suite of sensors. It could really help, but he’s steadfastly refused to adopt it even just to make buyers and the government feel safer.

That’s going to fuck them in the long run if they can’t make FSD work without it. No telling who’s right, long run.

For instance.

@sashafox @orc @pkrugman

People are already skeptical of EVs. I do not think they will make that connection. I doubt it, even.

And the LiDAR thing is about engineering choices, not engineering *quality*. None of the LiDAR teams have cracked the code yet either. I just think it’s a dumb decision he’s making for personal stubbornness reasons when adding it would be cheaper and make investors and buyers happier. Because he’s a narcissist.

@sashafox @orc @pkrugman

But that first paragraph is entirely where we disagree. I don’t disagree with your analysis except in that it separates out Tesla for scorn. You think that won’t matter and I think it will.

That isn’t resolvable. As I said hours ago we are at an impasse.

@numbcat9 @orc @pkrugman Yes. That goes back to me believing that things like a 700% higher crash rate make people view Teslas as being unsafe, and you believing it's the result of a smear campaign. That's not something either of us has the capability to prove to any reasonable basis.

It could be entirely because Musk is a douche on Twitter, as Krugman suggests.

I appreciated the good faith discussion.