Terrafied Kestrel 

But seriously, as an anthropologist it drives me fucking crazy that people are so excited about learning Na’vi from Avatar and speaking fucking Klingon and trying to create new languages for their fantasy novel.

Actual human languages are dying because of colonialism and globalization and somehow nobody says “maybe I’ll use an actual dying language and get people excited about speaking that.” Nope, ima make some shit up and let that die. It’s ego over good and it makes me so sad.

Dec 27, 2022 at 3:25amWeb
Show threadTerrafied Kestrel Dec 27, 2022
An addendum for all the "that would be appropriation" apologists. In the late 90s as a student of linguistics, I wrote a series of essays about this topic. Part of my research was contacting elders and cultural resource professionals of various languages, many southern hemisphere, to inquire about their feelings on languages being supported by engaging in this activity. The result was near universal engagement with the idea provided people worked with them.
Show threadTerrafied Kestrel Dec 27, 2022
Just throwing out "appropriation" without actually engaging with the people comes off as a fairly big cop-out. Yes, there is a serious tendency for white/Western culture to take whatever they want and use it however they want without regard for outcomes, but not even engaging with a people to ask the question and give them the choice to work together to do some good was seen as a much, much bigger symbol of Western colonialist thought.
Show threadHannekeDec 27, 2022
@terrafiedkestrel I did wonder. Still would feel rather weird to write a story about some alien race and have them speak Navajo, I think. Inventing a language seems less self-absorbed to me than claiming an existing one (that is, without talking to actual speakers about it, which is a big difference as you point out). But as a not-writer the question is purely hypothetical for me anyway.
Show threadTerrafied Kestrel Dec 27, 2022
@h5e This was much more focused on large, corporate sponsored efforts. Klingon (And Vulcan, and the Star Trek franchise in general) was relatively new at the time and given the resources involved in creating and promoting that, the belief was very clear that, given those same resources, an indigenous language could have been saved and used as Klingon (or Vulcan) with respect and consideration.
Show threadHannekeDec 27, 2022
@terrafiedkestrel That would have been really cool
Show thread🧀queso y glaucimolo🥑Dec 27, 2022
@terrafiedkestrel Whether you or actual speakers would support it is besides the point - tons of people would get very mad on their behalf for using it as the language of a fictional species
Show threadTonya Marie 🏳️‍⚧️Dec 27, 2022
@terrafiedkestrel I would love to see native languages from the Americas show up places. To the average "western" ear, they are as exotic as you could want in a fantasy or scifi setting.
Show threadKevin Karhan Dec 27, 2022
@terrafiedkestrel I can understand the issue and personally, I wished people were to use the same energy to conserve and document old & dying languages, but sadly one cannot be forced into committing to intellectual labour...
Show threadK M LawrenceDec 28, 2022
@kkarhan @terrafiedkestrel but isn't Kestrel's point here that it could be done at the point of creation? (ie the Navi language could have been an indigenous American language, then people might have wanted to put in the labour without being asked, in the same way people aren't being forced to learn Klingon). Think about the language Blue in Saga - that's just Esperanto, which makes it easier for the authors but gives a nice alien feel to speakers of natural languages.
Show threadKat Dec 27, 2022
@terrafiedkestrel the same people making movies and shows cannot do a just version of a dying culture, only an insulting or degrading one so it's probably better they don't try, but they also shouldn't steal. However, I don't think Klingon and Navi are the same though, I mean, a culture based on one of the og colonizers (nords/vikings etc) and the other based on a people whose cultures have been repeatedly decimated are not really the same.
Show threadDzovDec 27, 2022
@terrafiedkestrel I really wish I could learn the language of my ancestors but learning disabilities and so few around that speak it have been stifling.
Show threadFrank VehafricDec 27, 2022
@terrafiedkestrel Pretty much anytime we spend our lives studying people we end up sad.
Show threadTeresa 👩🏼‍🦯Dec 27, 2022
@terrafiedkestrel I think some people just use it as a form of escapism, because the real world is a bitch. That's just me. I think I have an understanding of where you're coming from, too. I know there are Amazonian indigenous languages that are disappearing, for example.
Show threadHak Foo Dec 27, 2022

@terrafiedkestrel I could see a point where authors might worry about causing offense.

Frequently, the alien culture associated with a conlang is going to be cast as villianous or at least "inscrutable", which may not be the connations you want to assign the source language.

OTOH, I could see some careful use in specific plots. "There was a first-contact moment 300 years ago when they were the main culture here, so there's some cognates left behind" though that might annoy etymologists.

Show threadKevin RussellDec 27, 2022

@terrafiedkestrel

When I first heard of Code Talkers who contributed to the defeat of fascism by speaking a language unknown, far and wide, I was thrilled. A brilliant story of knowledge and diversity being of value existentially.
"...codes were formally developed based on the languages of the Comanche, Hopi, Meskwaki, and Navajo peoples..."

Lets hope for more stories of people's lives, the ones erased as much as their languages. Getting closer to more truths.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_talker

Code talker - Wikipedia

Show threadmlemDec 27, 2022
@terrafiedkestrel With an existing language you have to learn it well enough to be correct for every instance of its appearance. With a constructed language you can make it so that you're always correct. For example the Lakota in Dances with Wolves speak in a different manner than native speakers really would. The gendered words were, as I understand it, exclusive female. Even the men spoke that way. Nobody has ever accused a Klingon of speaking the language like a robot or whatever.
Show thread⸘ Ron Hale-Evans ‽ 🖖🏻Dec 27, 2022

@terrafiedkestrel I am a conlanger and I know a lot of conlangers, and the point is the joy of creation. You might as well complain that artists draw pictures of nonexistent scenes when they "should" only be taking realistic photos of poverty.

And for what it's worth, if you ever visit some conlang forums, you'll find that conlangers often learn and study obscure and indigenous natural languages as a background to their art, and sympathize with the plights of their peoples.

#conlangs

Show threadAriaflameDec 28, 2022
@rwhe @terrafiedkestrel I'm learning both Esperanto, a #conlang and Scottish Gaelic (not large number of native speakers). It's not an either or. (Though yes, I admit I'm from Scotland so I have a link). There's no appropriation worries with the French, Italian or Japanese though.
Show threadmarilyn goreDec 27, 2022
@terrafiedkestrel meanwhile, Black Panther 2 uses Xosha (Wakanda) and
Yucatec Maya (the Talokanil)
Show threadEd HeilDec 27, 2022

@terrafiedkestrel The onion is 23 years ahead of you on this issue

https://www.theonion.com/klingon-speakers-now-outnumber-navajo-speakers-1819565239

(the article is literally completely false though, of course, Navajo is one of the healthiest/most widely used of Native languages, but if they'd picked a different one probably literally true)

Klingon Speakers Now Outnumber Navajo Speakers

NEW YORK—According to a report released Monday by the Modern Language Association, speakers of the Star Trek-based Klingon language outnumber individuals fluent in Navajo by a margin of more than seven-to-one.

The Onion
Show threadTerrafied Kestrel Dec 27, 2022
@edheil “this issue” being the one I wrote a series of essays about 25 years ago and revisit now because of recent news about Avatar.
Show threadEd HeilDec 27, 2022
@terrafiedkestrel Maybe your essays inspired the Onion article!
Show threadEd HeilDec 27, 2022
@terrafiedkestrel (BTW, looking back at what I wrote, I realize "the onion is ahead of you" probably came off as disrespectful or belittling, I wasn't intending that when I wrote it, but I apologize that it came out sounding that way)
Show threadArlenecwDec 27, 2022
@terrafiedkestrel @KFuentesGeorge You are so right!
Show threadRichardDec 27, 2022
@terrafiedkestrel I just visited a weaving studio in Oaxaca and the weaver spoke to us a bit in Zapotec. Way cooler than Klingon or Elvish.
Show threadNatasha WarnerDec 28, 2022
@terrafiedkestrel I'm a linguist who works with a dormant Native American language (on language revitalization with the community) and with Klingon. I've also worked a tiny bit with Navajo. I absolutely wish the world would invest as heavily in endangered and dormant languages as movie companies invest in fictional conlangs. But I don't think we can or should use real human languages in place of say Klingon for fictional purposes. Several commenters have hit many of the reasons why not. I can't imagine any Native American community in North America that I've heard of consenting to have their language used this way, to represent a fictional other culture for a general American and worldwide audience's enjoyment. Even if leadership consented, there's a good chance many individuals in the community wouldn't agree and would feel exploited. On top of that is how Klingon culture for ex. is represented, which would not be very complimentary if associated with a real human culture. It could be that there could be an indigenous community somewhere on earth that would be happy to have their language used this way; the North American situation for indigenous languages isn't representative of everywhere. Even so they should not have to consent to sharing their language with the whole world this way in order to get investment in it. In addition, if the Klingon learning fan community were learning an indigenous language of Africa or Southeast Asia or Siberia, they would be unlikely to go contribute anything to language maintenance and revitalization in that community, they would just get to use the language for themselves.