VERTICAL.studioDec 6, 2022
Doctor M. Popular
Don't make me tap the sign
Dec 6, 2022 at 1:03amWeb
Show threadDoctor M. PopularDec 6, 2022

"There are never purely technological solutions to societal problems."

Not sure why that particular quote has been on my mind today, but I ended up mocking it up in the style of some motivational posters.

I first heard the quote in @molly0xfff's "Blockchain solutionism" talk at the University of Texas in Austin, but I've seen other variations of it since then. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0k_GjxuJDM

Blockchain solutionism – Guest lecture at the University of Texas at Austin by Molly White

YouTube
Show threadehurtley Dec 6, 2022

@docpop @molly0xfff Sure there are.

Societal problem: nazis

Technological solution: baseball bats

Show threadJobDec 6, 2022
@ehurtley @docpop @molly0xfff The baseball bat won't swing itself though
Show threadMarina  Dec 6, 2022
@docpop @molly0xfff Fabulous typography and great aphorism! 
Show threadBen CurthoysDec 6, 2022
@docpop @molly0xfff Social solutions to technological problems - reordering society to work around failures of technology - also suck.
Show threadKolmanDec 6, 2022

@bencurthoys @docpop @molly0xfff

In a complex world, most first-order solutions usually fail...
Is far better to address the underlying conditions beneath... (second/nth order causality, sometimes nonlinear/wicked)

Unfortunately, the majority don't want/can't understand that...

Show threadautistic_enby Dec 6, 2022
@pikolman @bencurthoys I felt that this was half of my job leading a small tech team in a growing startup.
I'd get all kinds of requests from operations and support teams, and I could either do what they asked and not really improve anything, or I can keep asking (like changing the exam question) until we arrive at an actual solution that improves our lives.
Show threadBen CurthoysDec 6, 2022
@autistic_enby @pikolman oh god the number of times I have had to say no to "a button here that does X". I listen to my customers when they tell me about their business needs, what they are trying to achieve, but their proposed solutions (usually "a button" that relies on the software being psychic) are almost always shit.
Show threadscott fDec 6, 2022
@docpop @molly0xfff get a union printer to print these and I'll buy one.
Show threadEd... should be in bed.Dec 6, 2022
@docpop
Tangental but related: I've often thought that some of the worst ideas with the best intentions come from trying to use one discipline to solve everything. Economics cannot solve everything. Neuroscience will not explain everything. We have many disciplines for a reason.
@molly0xfff @Ruth_Mottram
Show threadRuth MottramDec 6, 2022

@edclayand @docpop @molly0xfff absolutely agree! Also it is becoming increasingly clear that really big problems require a lot of #SocialScience too.

This is certainly a conclusion I've come to in #ClimateScience

Show threadAndrew PadillaDec 6, 2022
@docpop there is the notion of sociotechnical https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociotechnical_system
Sociotechnical system - Wikipedia

Show threadAlexandra NozikDec 6, 2022
@docpop that's also true about Mastodon 🙂
Show threadStryder NotaviDec 6, 2022

@Anoze4maps @docpop True, but at least part of what makes Mastodon good is the social culture here.

The other part is the absence of some technologies (e.g sophisticated algorithms that manipulate what you see and subtly nudge you towards attention seeking / doom-scrolling).

Show threadApple Annie Dec 6, 2022

@docpop is this a variation of Hardin's Tragedy of the Commons?

https://pages.mtu.edu/~asmayer/rural_sustain/governance/Hardin%201968.pdf

Show threadMatt "msw" WilsonDec 6, 2022

@anniegreens @docpop I don't see it that way. Personally, I find Hardin to be a problematic figure. When contemplating the problems of governing the commons (including how shared resources are provisioned in society), I prefer to refer to Elinor Ostrom's "Governing the Commons".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elinor_Ostrom

Elinor Ostrom - Wikipedia

Show threadMarcia Darling 🏳️‍⚧️Dec 6, 2022
@docpop one could say societal problems are exacerbated by technology
Show threadtichoDec 6, 2022
@docpop I don't know about that - a good doomsday device would make a *lot* of problems go away for good... :)
Show threadNika2022 🐶🎶🌐☕️Dec 6, 2022
@docpop been saying this all along. Too bad that a large number of politians (mostly with lacking actual IT skills) are easily influenced by some tech lobby and make laws that contradict this.
Actual privacy, IT security , human rights etc experts don't stand a chance when they try to concince them about how wrong some of those "bright ideas" are
Show threadMartin Vermeer FCDDec 6, 2022
@docpop Agreed. Free software and federated instances are societal solutions.
Show threadCellularMooseDec 6, 2022

@docpop
Agreed! Tech can never be a replacement for political change. The solution to authoritarian regimes for example is not to "just use Tor".

Instead, it's "use Tor to hide for long enough to be able to organize for political change".

Show threadsquireknottyashDec 6, 2022
@docpop I learned recently that William Blake basically said this about Isaac Newton. It was right then, too.
Show threadMike From UKDec 6, 2022
@docpop At my interview for my last (which was my last) job, as IT guy, I said "the problems you think are IT problems, as really business problems, you just don't realise it". Start with some honesty at least.
Show threads0 Is Not A SysadminDec 6, 2022
@docpop bookmarking this for regular use thank u
Show threadDavid RibesDec 6, 2022

@docpop

Yes, and also: no technical problem is purely technical...

These days, even the most esoteric mathematical formalism may come to have some utility in real world computing.

Show threadpeterDec 6, 2022
@docpop counterpoint
Show threadсꙮзнсфеDec 6, 2022
@peterdroberts @docpop AHAHAHA MAN OMG AHAAHAhADAF
Show threadDr. Quadragon ❌Dec 6, 2022

@peterdroberts Still requires societal institutions to properly function.

@docpop

Show threadDr. Quadragon ❌Dec 7, 2022
@peterdroberts @docpop I like another example - soundproof walls. Relationships between neighbors get significantly better when they can't hear each other singing, practicing an instrument or having sex.
Show threadMoritz HeiberDec 6, 2022
@docpop (or organizational problems; you can't buy your way out of the cultural hole you've dug for yourself)
Show threadRichard RodaDec 6, 2022
@docpop Corollary: technological solutions to societal problems create worse societal problems.
Show threadDavid ColarussoDec 6, 2022
@docpop strongly agree, but one could also point out that governments and institutions are forms of technology.
Show threadArrow.lightDec 6, 2022
@docpop yes doc
Show threadAshDec 6, 2022
@docpop what about the Guillotine
Show threadMeryl KriegerDec 6, 2022
@docpop THIS
Show threadViridi Vix [woofing]Dec 6, 2022
@docpop weekly purge
Show threadYasha Hartberg (he/him)Dec 6, 2022

@docpop

Clearly, then, we need to work on our purely technological solutions!

Show threadChloé RaccoonDec 6, 2022
@docpop @aellabrennadesigns Well, there aren't till the solution is Ripley's?
Show thread🇺🇦PsiPhi 🦉🔬Dec 6, 2022
@docpop
Just to play devil’s advocate what about these?:
Indoor plumbing, milk pasteurization, antibiotics/ vaccines for specific diseases, birth control
Solved high infant mortality rescuing women from a life of constant pregnancy and childbirth & child rearing, allowing them to work outside the home and participate fully in economic and civil life.
Show thread🇺🇦PsiPhi 🦉🔬Dec 6, 2022
@docpop
Perhaps a technological change necessarily implies a societal change. You can’t have a technological change and not have a societal change.
Show threadRichardOntarioDec 6, 2022
@psiphi @docpop I won’t be here to experience it but hoping Homo Sapien evolves to where any and all new technologies will be for their personal development and not just another new means of production
Show threadphyddeauxDec 6, 2022
@docpop Lampposts?
Show threadAnnafestoDec 6, 2022
@docpop the unforeseen consequences of computer code is what I warned my students
Show threadHollowDec 6, 2022
@docpop
Marx would point out the relationship between modes of production (which depends on technology) and relations of production.
I can't say the steam machine was a solution to a societal problem, but it played a big role in the end of feudalism.
What do you think?
Show threadmstrcolmDec 6, 2022
@docpop except for contraception and birth control.
Show threadGreg Clarke 🇨🇦 Dec 6, 2022
@docpop the Terminator disagrees
Show threadHumanist EngineerDec 6, 2022
@docpop Knowing this would have saved me MANY hours of work as a young engineer.
Show threadVahid MasrourDec 6, 2022
@AnneLaureM
Show threadAnne-LaureMDec 6, 2022
@vahidm it's cool, we, social workers, volonteers and other "mad/dreamy/foolish/woke/..." people have plenty ideas to change the world ;)
(But I don't understand why you tag me on this ^^")
Show threadVahid MasrourDec 6, 2022
@AnneLaureM Still figuring out Mastodon's reply system 😬 I thought I was replying something you posted/boosted by @docpop ?
Show threadAnne-LaureMDec 6, 2022
@vahidm @docpop hooo OK. It's more clear ^^ I do the same all the time xD.
Show threadDoctor M. PopularDec 6, 2022
@vahidm I hadn't seen that before. It's well put.
Show threadVahid MasrourDec 6, 2022
@docpop I go back to this again and again. It doesn't make it easier, but it helps figure out the "targets" and the "audiences" we need to work with while the system collapses and we build something else, IMHO.
Show threadAndy WaschickDec 6, 2022
@docpop are there purely technological causes for societal problems?
Show threadDoctor M. PopularDec 6, 2022
@randywaterhouse I don't think so. No societal problems would be purely caused by tech, just as no problems would be purely solved by it. In either way there is likely to be a deeper problem that won't disappear if we got rid of the tech. Sometimes we want to believe tech can create or cause problems, when the problem itself is much deeper than what the tech can change.
Show threadMatt "msw" WilsonDec 6, 2022

@docpop I was just skimming a paper last night that includes this in a list of "13 propositions on an internet for a 'burning world'"

https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/3538395.3545312

13 propositions on an internet for a

ACM Conferences
Show threadneoteotihuacanDec 6, 2022
@docpop *stares in prosthetic limbs*
Show threadFelipe Dec 6, 2022
@docpop this sounds very specifically targeted, let me guess: crypto bros