Woozle HypertwinAcid test for any social network or fedi instance:
If you say "fuck you" to a Nazi, who gets banned?
Sébastien Night@woozle On this instance, both 🙂
flere-imsaho 🇺🇦@sebastien @woozle oh, so it's a *polite* authoritarian instance?
@mawhrin @woozle lol...I knew I'd be getting flak for replying. But hey, the question shows up in my feed, so what's it for?
So - I think cultivating a space for cordial civil discussion is important. The non-Nazi user would be expected (in our community) to report the offending post/user to mods so the offending behavior can be blocked from the entire instance. This benefits the community. Insults don't.
(I wouldn't *ban* the "non-Nazi" user, but they'd get a warning)
So - I think cultivating a space for cordial civil discussion is important. The non-Nazi user would be expected (in our community) to report the offending post/user to mods so the offending behavior can be blocked from the entire instance. This benefits the community. Insults don't.
(I wouldn't *ban* the "non-Nazi" user, but they'd get a warning)
I'd say that's within the scope of reason, especially given the possible ambiguity around whether the "Nazi" really understands the face-eating leopard they're getting into bed with.
They may be just unwittingly repeating disinformation, or something that sounds like it.
There's a lot to be said for attitude-checking: does the "Nazi" adjust their views in response to new information, or do they just get angrier?
@sebastien @woozle it's grand; i'm just saying that i can't be arsed to care for a community that polices the language so.
a society that enforces politeness always leans authoritarian.
@mawhrin @woozle politeness and civility are different.
Being polite: using good manners to not offend others.
Telling someone "You're a fucking genius" is not polite, but we'd have no rule against that :-)
Being civil: behaving in a respectful / benevolent fashion.
Enforcing politeness is useless, because it creates communities that are politely toxic.
The problem with "Fuck you" is not "Fuck".
Being polite: using good manners to not offend others.
Telling someone "You're a fucking genius" is not polite, but we'd have no rule against that :-)
Being civil: behaving in a respectful / benevolent fashion.
Enforcing politeness is useless, because it creates communities that are politely toxic.
The problem with "Fuck you" is not "Fuck".
@sebastien @woozle you did just the very thing here. thanks for making my point for me.
A good moderator understands what you just said.
Too many moderators don't, and that's when things can end up at "fuck you".
How the argument is handled at that point is key.
That also seems sus. What did the non-Nazi do wrong?
@woozle Using an offending third party as an excuse for verbal violence is not great. It's pretty clear that changing people's opinions (especially if they espouse extremist ideologies) is hard. Changing their opinions through insulting them is definitely not going to achieve anything.
You know what achieves something? Blocking them from the instance so the whole neighbourhood is safer.
You know what achieves something? Blocking them from the instance so the whole neighbourhood is safer.
That's kinda exactly what I'm talking about: does the admin recognize that the Nazi is the one who primarily needs removal or censure, or do they take a "both sides" / "I don't care who started it" false-equivalence approach, or (worst) do they look strictly at "civility" and decide that the person who used a bad word is clearly the offending party?
@woozle Well, I've found that when you're with your right kind of people, these questions don't really come up. So I have the privilege to never have to wonder about that issue you raised here (and I've run 40,000-people strong online communities)... The other poster in this thread (I'm using Tusky and can't easily find his handle) says he wouldn't care for a "benevolent dictature" like our instance.
That's what's so great about Mastodon. We crossed paths, had conversation, all good.
That's what's so great about Mastodon. We crossed paths, had conversation, all good.
@sebastien You're kind of reinforcing my original point, in that fedi allows us to move between niches without losing all of the connections that make it valuable -- and observing how disputes are resolved within those spaces is an important part of finding one that works for each of us as individuals.
@woozle A guy comes in the neighbourhood and starts painting swastikas on the walls, they need to get arrested.
You start a fist fight with them, and now the cops have two problems: a Nazi, and a brawl. Some neighborhoods don't want either the Nazi nor the brawler around.
You start a fist fight with them, and now the cops have two problems: a Nazi, and a brawl. Some neighborhoods don't want either the Nazi nor the brawler around.
That assumes the police will recognize the problem and act accordingly.
I think part of what I am highlighting, in the original post, is the fact that too many venues won't notice/recognize that there's a problem until someone curses (or starts physically resisting microaggression -- "what's wrong with a little painting? where's the harm? He was just expressing himself. You against free speech or something?").
@woozle ah I get it. Well then it just wouldn't be a great neighbourhood to stay in, and the world is big, so I'd just pack up 😄