WobblyGoose/Dr RachelNov 30, 2022
Conrad Hackett 
The remarkable concentration of total household wealth held by the wealthiest 10%
🇺🇸 US 79%
🇳🇱 Netherlands 68%
🇩🇰 Denmark 64%
🇩🇪 Germany 60%
🇨🇱 Chile 58%
🇦🇹 Austria 56%
🇬🇧 UK 52%
🇨🇦 Canada 51%
🇫🇷 France 51%
🇳🇴 Norway 51%
🇦🇺 Australia 46%
🇪🇸 Spain 46%
🇫🇮 Finland 45%
🇮🇹 Italy 43%
🇯🇵 Japan 41%
https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/e2879a7d-en/1/3/1/index.html?itemId=/content/publication/e2879a7d-en&_csp_=629b9a65616a4d96ca81e8985e607a2f&itemIGO=oecd&itemContentType=book#section-d1e599 @sociology @economics
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Nov 29, 2022 at 9:17pmWeb
Show threadCraig FroehleNov 29, 2022
@conradhackett @sociology @economics Our Gini Index is out of control. Societies don't seem to be very stable at this level of inequality.
Show threadAndrés (personal views)Nov 29, 2022
@conradhackett @sociology @economics I wonder how this would look like if savings were taken into account.
Not sure I understand what household wealth means. It seems to include investment stock but not savings?
Show threadPeter Walker 🇺🇲🇺🇦🇫🇮🌎🕊️☑️Nov 30, 2022
@amunizp @conradhackett @sociology @economics I'm an American. Can you explain this "savings" you speak of?
Show threadTom LevensonNov 29, 2022
@conradhackett @sociology @economics I finally got around to reading this piece this a.m.; it is, I think, on point: https://www.lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v44/n11/william-davies/destination-unknown?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=20220516ftni&utm_content=20220516ftni+CID_cbc7560f463338a77ab8905fb15757c4&utm_source=LRB%20email&utm_term=Read%20more
William Davies · Destination Unknown: Sociology Gone Wrong · LRB 9 June 2022

Where sociologists had spent much of the 20th century trying to understand poverty and shifting class stratifications...

London Review of Books
Show threadberkes 🐝 🚐 🏄 🌱Nov 29, 2022

@conradhackett @sociology @economics i'm quite sure there's a lot of depth to this chart.

What is household wealth? How does it relate to debt?

I'm quite sure some 80% of the top 3 is really just debt. E.g. the Netherlands households live in houses €500000 up, but financed with loans often far above that. Do they *have* half a million, do they *owe* half a million?

Show threadceolnNov 29, 2022

@berkes

There's a whole page of details, with pointers to more details, cited right above the chart, if you want to look those things up. :)
@conradhackett @sociology @economics

Show threadOzwobblyNov 29, 2022

@conradhackett @sociology @economics

The World inequality database is a little different but equally stark, some countries like the Netherlands do better but places like my home country Australia and Chile do significantly worse.

- United States's wealthiest 10% holding 70.7% of total wealth in 2021
- The Netherlands' wealthiest 10% holding 47.9% of total wealth in 2021
-Denmark's wealthiest 10% holding 50.7% of total wealth in 2021
-Germany's wealthiest 10% holding 58.9 % of total wealth
- Chile's wealthiest 10% holding 80.4% of total wealth in 2021.
- Austria's wealthiest 10% holding 61.9% of total wealth in 2021.
- The United Kingdom's wealthiest 10% holding 57.1% of total wealth.
- Canada's wealthiest 10 % holding 58.3% of total wealth in 2021
- France's wealthiest 10% holding 59.3% of total wealth.
- Australia's wealthiest 10% holding 57.1% of total wealth in 2021.
- Spain's wealthiest 10% holding 57.6% of total wealth in 2021
- Italy's wealthiest 10% holding 56.2% of total wealth.
- Japan's wealthiest 10% holding 58.6% of total wealth.

I'm not equipped to explain why the dataset doesn't move in a uniform direction between the two datasets. In particular I can't work out why the Netherlands is ranked so highly on the first dataset.

As a lay person I like WID because you can see it in comparison to other groupings like the middle 40% and bottom 50%. The bottom 50% is absolutely soul crushing, especially in places like the United States where they hold 1.5% of total wealth.

I also find it interesting that in most data sets there's further stratification in that top 10%. In the United States for example the top 1% holds about half of the 70% of wealth the top 10% holds.

Show threadOzwobblyNov 29, 2022

@conradhackett @sociology @economics

I've done a little digging and assuming I've understood the data correctly it's to do with how they mortgage debt v house value and the WID also factors in pension wealth.

Show threadEesger🇳🇱🇪🇺Nov 29, 2022

Ofwel.. in 🇳🇱 :
Van alle rijkdom van huishoudens in Nederland, zit
68% van de rijkdom bij 10% van huishoudens
Ofwel:
32% van de rijkdom zit bij 90% van de huishoudens!

En om het plaatje compleet te maken, bijna de HELFT van die "top 10%" van de rijkdom zit maar bij 1% van de huishoudens!!

Alleen 🇺🇸 is nog erger..

En ik maar denken dat 🇺🇸 een extreem (verrot) kapitalistisch land was.. we zijn dus nog net, echt net, een haar beter 😢

https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/e2879a7d-en/1/3/1/index.html?itemId=/content/publication/e2879a7d-en&_csp_=629b9a65616a4d96ca81e8985e607a2f&itemIGO=oecd&itemContentType=book#section-d1e599

@conradhackett @sociology @economics

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Show threadEelco de RookNov 30, 2022
@eesger @conradhackett @sociology @economics Ware Rusland in het lijstje opgenomen, dan had 't zeker bovenaan gestaan? — 85% van het BNP verdwijnt daar in de zakken van de oligarchen… 🙄
Show threadXander MolNov 30, 2022

@eesger @conradhackett @sociology @economics Known issue with the Dutch number in these statistics: pension savings are not included as they are not individual (yet). That changes a lot, especially as the wealthiest people do have pensions savings their own account or investments, while ‘normal working’ people have it in collective pension schemes.

Adjusted for that, the Netherlands is actually more egalitarian than the EU average.

Show threadDavid HembrowNov 30, 2022
@xahmol @eesger @conradhackett @sociology @economics Thank you. That's a very helpful clarification.
Show threadXander MolNov 30, 2022
@hembrow @eesger @conradhackett @sociology @economics Of course with pension investments such a large part of the total wealth for people and pension schemes differing so much between countries (fully state, collective private or individual savings accounts) I expect comparison between counties to be skewed not only for the Netherlands. Very hard to compare apples with apples here.
Show threadDavid HembrowNov 30, 2022

@xahmol @eesger @conradhackett @sociology @economics There's another reply to the thread which is also interesting. Other methodologies of measuring Gini don't result in the Netherlands fairing so badly:
https://kolektiva.social/@ozwobbly/109429598290782082

From a personal perspective I don't see a level of inequality here in NL that is anything like so obvious as what is visible in the US, or even in the UK. So I think the ranking at the top of this thread is missing something.

Ozwobbly (@[email protected])

@[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] The World inequality database is a little different but equally stark, some countries like the Netherlands do better but places like my home country Australia and Chile do significantly worse. - United States's wealthiest 10% holding 70.7% of total wealth in 2021 - The Netherlands' wealthiest 10% holding 47.9% of total wealth in 2021 -Denmark's wealthiest 10% holding 50.7% of total wealth in 2021 -Germany's wealthiest 10% holding 58.9 % of total wealth - Chile's wealthiest 10% holding 80.4% of total wealth in 2021. - Austria's wealthiest 10% holding 61.9% of total wealth in 2021. - The United Kingdom's wealthiest 10% holding 57.1% of total wealth. - Canada's wealthiest 10 % holding 58.3% of total wealth in 2021 - France's wealthiest 10% holding 59.3% of total wealth. - Australia's wealthiest 10% holding 57.1% of total wealth in 2021. - Spain's wealthiest 10% holding 57.6% of total wealth in 2021 - Italy's wealthiest 10% holding 56.2% of total wealth. - Japan's wealthiest 10% holding 58.6% of total wealth. I'm not equipped to explain why the dataset doesn't move in a uniform direction between the two datasets. In particular I can't work out why the Netherlands is ranked so highly on the first dataset. As a lay person I like WID because you can see it in comparison to other groupings like the middle 40% and bottom 50%. The bottom 50% is absolutely soul crushing, especially in places like the United States where they hold 1.5% of total wealth. I also find it interesting that in most data sets there's further stratification in that top 10%. In the United States for example the top 1% holds about half of the 70% of wealth the top 10% holds.

kolektiva.social
Show threadXander MolNov 30, 2022
@hembrow @eesger @conradhackett @sociology @economics Probably (but not sure) because that number does factor pensions in. That number comes close to the number that the Dutch statistics bureau (CBS) always replies on persons complaining about the OECD Gini stats.
Show threadXander MolNov 30, 2022
@hembrow @eesger @conradhackett @sociology @economics And for as far as my knowledge of countries go, the differences between the two numbers largely correlate with countries having collective private pension schemes (Netherlands for example) vs state (Germany)
Show threadEesger🇳🇱🇪🇺Nov 30, 2022

@xahmol @hembrow @conradhackett @sociology @economics
Ah, happy to have been CC'd ;)
So factoring in private VS state pensions makes a huge difference!

1: % World inequality database
2: % OECD delta
3: OECD delta pos)
ref: https://wid.world/world/

🇨🇱 CL 80% -22% +4
🇺🇸 US 71% +9% +1
🇦🇹 AT 62% -6% -3
🇫🇷 FR 59% -8% -5
🇩🇪 DE 59% +1% +1
🇯🇵 JP 59% -18% +9
🇨🇦 CA 58% -7% +1
🇪🇸 ES 58% -12% +4
🇬🇧 GB 57% -5% -2
🇦🇺 AU 57% -11% +1
🇮🇹 IT 56% -13% +3
🇩🇰 DK 51% +13% -9
🇳🇱 NL 48% +20% -11
🇳🇴 NO 30% +21% -4
🇫🇮 FI 33% +13% +2

World - WID - World Inequality Database

World The source for global inequality data. Open access, high quality wealth and income inequality data developed by an international academic consortium.

WID - World Inequality Database
Show threadXander MolNov 30, 2022
@eesger @hembrow @conradhackett @sociology @economics If anything, it shows which countries have the most unsustainable pension systems 😉State funded schemes directly rise to the top this way.
Show threadEesger🇳🇱🇪🇺Nov 30, 2022

@xahmol @hembrow @conradhackett @sociology @economics CC: @ozwobbly

What is interesting to see at https://wid.world/ is that the world is at 77.1% inequality!

And that the most unequal countries, MOSTLY are the less rich ones. The 'rich(er)' ones that should mostly be ashamed (imho) are:
- 76.4% United Arab Emirates
- 74.1% Russia
- 74.0% Oman
- 72.9% Kuwait
- 72.6% Saudi Arabia
- 72.1% Iraq
- 71.7% Qatar
- 70.7% USA (at least they are consistent ;)
- 68.8% China
- 68.0% Turkey

Home - WID - World Inequality Database

Home The source for global inequality data. Open access, high quality wealth and income inequality data developed by an international academic consortium.

WID - World Inequality Database
Show threadOzwobblyNov 30, 2022

@eesger @xahmol @hembrow @conradhackett @sociology @economics

I think we need to be careful of assuming that the headline numbers tell the full picture. The WID only shows the bottom 50% without a breakdown of the distribution within that group. That can hide some pretty significant

In Australia for example, conservative estimates from groups like ACOSS have approximately 3.3 million (about 1 in 8) people living in poverty ( https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://povertyandinequality.acoss.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/Poverty-in-Australia-2020_A-snapshot.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiJzZ3A0Nb7AhVrumMGHbp6DrsQFnoECAoQAQ&usg=AOvVaw20gmAvfZoL-oNyxd7x7bQg) . The real number is even higher than that because it's relative to median income rather than metrics associated with the real cost of living like Melbourne University's Henderson Poverty Line ( https://melbourneinstitute.unimelb.edu.au/research/labour/henderson-poverty-line ).

Things are currently bad enough that the poorest in our society regularly skip meals to survive and make hard choices between medication and food.

None of that is acceptable, despite doing significantly better than the worst offenders like the United States and it's having a visible effect on our political system.

Show threadXander MolNov 30, 2022

@ozwobbly @eesger @hembrow @conradhackett @sociology @economics oh, never wanted to state with my nuance that no action is needed.

I fully support the move that also in the Netherlands wealth should be taxed heavier and income less.

But also like to have a nuanced use of statistics used for ammunition in this discussion.

Show threadOzwobblyNov 30, 2022

@xahmol @eesger @hembrow @conradhackett @sociology @economics

I assumed as much. I've found the back and forth under your post to be extremely valuable.

Taking action part the hard part. Australia is currently at a dead end on these issues in the parliament.

Anti-poverty groups have completely won the public argument on measures with support for things like raising the unemployment payment (Jobseeker) enjoying widespread public support through the electorate writ large and in marginal electorates.

There's also buy-in from large chunks of civil society including the largest political pressure group, business and the peak union body to raise the rate.

Despite this there's been no movement in the parliament, both our major parties (Australian Labor Party and the Liberal party) have refused to take action.

The major parties have instead exacerbated the problem by cutting taxes on the wealthy and increased coercion of people in poverty through forced labour schemes like work for dole and arbitrary cancellation of payments for people who fail to meet their "mutual" obligations.

Show threadMarco van Burgsteden 🍋Nov 30, 2022
@eesger een deel zou kunnen worden verklaard doordat de pensioenen niet zijn meegeteld, als ik de tekst goed begrijp. In veel andere landen moeten mensen dat zelf regelen waardoor die spaarpot door de oeso bij hun vermogen is opgeteld. Dan wordt het vermogen een stuk gelijker verdeeld. Maar ik ben geen expert dus ik kan ernaast zitten.
Show threadAndrew WinstonNov 30, 2022

.@conradhackett @sociology @economics

All of these have likely gotten noticeably worse in the last 40 years. The US has.

Show threadPoeticLicenseDKNov 30, 2022

@conradhackett @sociology
@economics

If you can poke holes in the argument, let me know, or better yet contact CESJ directly.
The Economic Democracy Act | Center for Economic & Social Justice https://www.cesj.org/learn/economic-democracy-act/

The Economic Democracy Act | Center for Economic & Social Justice

The Economic Democracy Act: Capital Ownership for Every Citizen You never change things by fighting existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete. -- Buckminster Fuller The Economic Democracy Act or "EDA" (formerly called the Capital Homestead Act) is a proposed Federal legislative program of

Center for Economic & Social Justice | Changing the system to promote dignity, power and ownership for every person.
Show threadRuss CopelandNov 30, 2022
@conradhackett @sociology @economics it's the roaring 20s again.
Show threadAaron SojournerNov 30, 2022

In the U.S., here's how business ownership and pension wealth -- hence roughly profits, dividends, & stock buybacks -- are shared across families.

There are no axes on the graph. Those thin lines are data

Show threadyrrejNov 30, 2022
@conradhackett @sociology @economics
Hmmm, Seems to be mostly Western-style governments based on the Roman model.
Show threadGaryRLundbergNov 30, 2022

@conradhackett @sociology @economics @ricardoharvin

Stunning! The trickle-up con has been work insidiously for decades.

Show threadSeasiders2Nov 30, 2022
@conradhackett @sociology @economics this is one table I am happy to see our nation is not doing as well as others. Wealth is not the problem so much as the fear the wealthy have people are out to take advantage of them. To placate that fear they employ public relations firms to explain how generous they are. If they paid tax at the same rate as their cleaners none of the residents in their country would experience hunger, homelessness, or burdensome health and educational costs. A wealthey friend explains it is not real wealth because it is related to share prices, i do not accept this anymore than I do that the companies they hold employ thousands who are enriched by their benevolence. (Still 14% wealth in the hands of the 1% is better than 50%
Show threadErik StrubNov 30, 2022

@conradhackett @sociology @economics

This has serious implications for the claim "tax the rich" as it means if tax the top 10% it is the majority of houdseholds in the OECD... I have to confess: tax me!

Show threadMatt J. - WriterNov 30, 2022
@conradhackett @sociology @economics this tells me that America is the poorest country and that Money = Poverty
Show threadMarcel-Jan KrijgsmanNov 30, 2022
@conradhackett @sociology @economics The Netherlands on 2nd place. That can’t be good.
Show thread#bullshitjobsNov 30, 2022
@conradhackett @sociology @economics
And the 3-4 billion non-contributing #bullshitjobs, that allowed all those numbers to get extracted, wasted most of our resources, energy and fossil fuels. Causing #climatechange, pandemics and "inflation".
Show threadMark BurtonNov 30, 2022
@conradhackett @sociology @economics
So here in the UK, top 10% have 52% of the wealth. Same as OECD average. But too 1% have 20%, higher than OECD's 18%.
#Inequality #UK
Show threadprotein & vegNov 30, 2022

@markhburton @conradhackett @sociology @economics

Yeah, I've looked at UK's gini before, and (from memory) it hasn't got (noticeably) worse for years now. I guess perception is not the same as the raw numbers. Certainly feels like an unequal country, particularly in England.

Show threadEvelyne de LeeuwNov 30, 2022
@conradhackett @sociology @economics outrageous
Show threadJesper Padkær PetersenNov 30, 2022
@conradhackett @sociology @economics
It could be interesting to see the histograms for the single countries? Averages potentially squewed by very rich single families.
Show threadPeter Walker 🇺🇲🇺🇦🇫🇮🌎🕊️☑️Nov 30, 2022
@conradhackett @sociology @economics it would be quite interesting to see a graph of the percent of household income paid in taxes by income group. Mine is about 20% federal + local. Trump's is what, $750? Musk, $0?
Show threadTHIS ACCOUNT HAS MOVEDNov 30, 2022
@conradhackett @sociology @economics late stage American capitalism. How long will the dams hold?
Show threadBennettmadeNov 30, 2022
@conradhackett @sociology @economics interesting that the Netherlands isn’t far behind the US.
Show threadMaddler  Nov 30, 2022
@conradhackett @sociology @economics fun fact 20% of Italian household wealth is owned by the church. It accounts for more than €10B.
Show threadVelteropⓐⓊ🪂🇪🇺🇳🇱🇬🇧🇩🇪Nov 30, 2022
@conradhackett @sociology
@economics
There goes the common perception of the Dutch that The Netherlands have an egalitarian society!
Show threadChris JakobsenNov 30, 2022
@conradhackett
This seems to illustrate that even in the "socialist" State of Denmark some people are able to be wealthy.
#dkpol
@sociology @economics
Show threadMark TheasceticNov 30, 2022
@conradhackett @sociology @economics Seems a bit misleading as the average income in developed countries is very much higher than that of most people on earth.
Show threadSevtapNov 30, 2022
@conradhackett @sociology @economics
Show threadBeverly WhiteNov 30, 2022
@conradhackett @sociology @economics this is seriously no surprise to anyone who has been paying attention for the last many years.
Show threadCedric M. KochNov 30, 2022

@economics @conradhackett @sociology

fascinating variation too at a depressing level - US wealth inequality problem double as severe as in Japan & Italy with its relatively equally shared insecurity strike me especially

Show threadNerdiCorgiDec 1, 2022

@conradhackett @sociology @economics

You don't have to look far in this country to see five working adults share a house and still struggle to keep food on the table and rent paid.

Show threadHenrik DissingDec 1, 2022
@conradhackett @sociology @economics looks like this analysis only cover part if the world?
Show threadConrad Hackett Dec 1, 2022
@dissing This is OECD analysis of OECD countries.
Show threadbeladonaDec 3, 2022

@conradhackett @sociology @economics

#incomeinquity is a growing problem

Show threadJohn MullinaxDec 3, 2022
@conradhackett @sociology @economics 79%? Actually disgusting.
Show threadFrank CoteDec 13, 2022
@conradhackett @sociology @economics looks like America's winning. Hmmm wait... Oh☹️
Show threadcostrikeJan 19, 2023
@conradhackett @sociology @economics I think it's spelled "infuriating."