Cat HicksNov 29, 2022
So here's one of the things I'm super interested in that's coming out of our recent pilot research with software teams: there's a big difference between "things that are hard, but we're good at solving them" and "things that are hard, in a way that absolutely kills our motivation."
Show threadCat Hicks

I think there's a lot of talk in the industry about "developer experience" and easing friction and I get that and believe in that -- but I'm always struck by how, when you ask several hundred developers if they believe they can solve hard problems....they DO believe this! They solve hard problems all the time!

But certain kinds of "hard" are a killer--cascading demotivation for people.

Nov 29, 2022 at 5:36pmWeb
Show threadCat HicksNov 29, 2022
A lot of what we've studied about motivation with *students* in school focuses on helping them get over that first kind of hard -- individual self-efficacy. But developers score REALLY HIGH whenever you ask them to answer self-efficacy measures!! This is wonderful to me. What a cool gift. What a cool feature of this community.
Show threadCat HicksNov 29, 2022

This also has implications for where motivation "lives" in the system of software engineering. Yes, individual self-efficacy is always a good thing to encourage. But I am not sure it's what software teams truly deeply NEED, as much as they need support and protection against the second kind of hard.

What's the second kind of hard? Well we're working on identifying that, but there are pretty clear trends.

Show threadCat HicksNov 29, 2022
Sneak peek from our pilot research: this "second kind of hard" seems to bubble up for people when they say, "I had to repeat all this work again because no one remembered a previous project." or "yeah I solved an amazing technical issue, and then I found out I was working on the wrong part of the code because someone had changed x and hadn't told me." It's core motivational stuff about whether you feel SUPPORTED.
Show threadCat HicksNov 29, 2022
There are many important things here but one I think is vital to see: people who are capable of solving IMMENSELY difficult technical challenges will still feel this type of friction as "final straw" stuff. If you ask people about what they imagine the riskiest kind of software project, really dig into it -- consistently, people say that burnout from dealing with hypocrisy is worse than not having the technical skills or even not having money
Show threadCat HicksNov 29, 2022
A lot of things matter but it's really interesting as a researcher to ask, "which kind of hard would you choose if you had to choose." At least so far in my research, developers will choose the 'first kind of hard,' will choose to teach themselves entire new languages, will find motivation inside of ALL kinds of hard stuff, as long as they feel protected from the second kind of hard.
Show threadCat HicksNov 29, 2022
(if any of this rings true for you or you want to share a related experience definitely please check out our survey, where you can also opt in for future research!! https://pluralsight.co1.qualtrics.com/jfe/form/SV_06TsuT7vkoM9Pdc )
Qualtrics Survey | Qualtrics Experience Management

The most powerful, simple and trusted way to gather experience data. Start your journey to experience management and try a free account today.

Show threadwb x64Nov 29, 2022
@grimalkina my work in hackerspaces has definitely taught me that motivation, inspiration, energy, a sense of accomplishment, camaraderie, friendship, a sense that what you're doing is worthwhile, and a sense of self-actualization (doing not just interesting things but interesting things that seem to arise from within ourselves and our fickle desires) is far far far far more important than tools and languages and physical space and all the tangible things you think are important.
Show threadwb x64Nov 29, 2022
@grimalkina when I'm teaching wood shop or programming or soldering I'm usually not just teaching the skill so much as training the idea and practice of continuing forward even when things are unclear and hard: it's a life skill that's trained out of a lot of us especially in "teaching to the test." There is no single right answer or even a universal "right" or an "answer" in the sense of a fixed destination, nowhere in life outside of academia and totalitarianism.
Show threadscyNov 30, 2022
@grimalkina You might be interested in this short thread describing a related topic: https://eldritch.cafe/@AgathaSorceress/109428636157002184
agatha, fangs gf 🎀 (@[email protected])

just read a long article about software not being good and honestly at this point I'm still a big believer of the idea that most "software is painfully low quality" problems in computer science boil down to either capitalism prioritizing what's profitable over high quality, or people who don't even /want/ to be doing programming doing programming... because capitalism makes it more profitable than things those people might actually be interested in doing

Eldritch Café
Show threadfrancis nortonDec 11, 2022

@grimalkina If - as a burnt out coder turned counsellor - I do the survey, would you like me to specify my "current" role (individual contributor) or my less applicable but really current role (other).

Do you want to capture the experiences of people so burnt out that they've left the profession?

Show threadAlex FrancisDec 23, 2022
@grimalkina not a developer, but much of what you’re describing rings true for burnout in academia as well, both based on personal experience and what small amount I’ve read. I suspect a lot of „knowledge workers“ fit this pattern, scoring high on self efficacy but also depending on a strong sense of institutional support and shared purpose that can be debilitating when lost, betrayed, or undermined by shortsightedness or incompetence.
Show threadBhob RaineyDec 23, 2022
@grimalkina thanks for this thread. I've been developing for a long time now and still get motivated by true, technical challenges. Any day where I find that the best solution is a recursive function is a good day. But I'm driven to the point of early retirement by all of the trivial missteps and poor communications and anti-architectural processes that turn easy things into hard things, leaving a trail of bad blood behind them. Devs are too often set up for failure.
Show threadGrant_HNov 29, 2022
@grimalkina is the first sort of hard not more "intellectual", and the second a lot more "emotional", possibly, for want of better terms?
The sense of betrayal from having your time wasted by indifference or incompetence has, I think, a far higher impact than losing a chunk of work to a bug or a misplaced comma.
Programmers are notoriously bad at "playing politics", which is more an emotional game than the coding.
My R0, 02 worth.
Show threadCat HicksNov 29, 2022
@grant_h yes totally. I might say "cognitive emotional" or "motivational" because hey, a lot of intellectual work AND emotions are involved in dealing with these kinds of problems. But totally agree that at the core of it there is this "lesson" you're learning
Show threadGrant_HNov 30, 2022
@grimalkina I like "cognitive emotional" because dealing with non-technical issues is definitely both.
The number of software people who struggle with relating to humans is not zero.
Show threadCat HicksNov 30, 2022
@grant_h I too, despite and perhaps because of being a psychologist, can struggle with relating to humans :)
Show threadGrant_HNov 30, 2022
@grimalkina mmm. Cause and effect here? I have found psychology helpful in understanding humans, in their diversity. Even some of the simpler "pop" psychology models make people think about how different someone else can be. Intro vs extraverts?
Show threadGrant_HNov 30, 2022
@grimalkina Which triggers a tangential thought to the original post: if the pre-October Mastodon was largely populated by introverts (objective evidence limited!) then the influx of "noisy extraverts" from the other site would feel like quite the invasion, and they would be looking for the excitement of the affirmation that a huge site would give, but quiet Mastodon doesn't.
Show threadwas B (this is my old account)Nov 30, 2022
@grimalkina is anyone good with the second kind of hard? 😅 I’m not a dev and not really great at sticking with stuff like learning new programming languages or instruments or what-have-you but even just reading the examples of the second kind of hard kinda felt like a gut punch. 🙃 I wish I had that kind of fortitude!
Show threadCat HicksNov 30, 2022
@b_cavello I actually do think some people develop tremendous strategic ability to protect their teams/projects... But executing on it requires a certain amount of agency and power in the environment! So I hear examples of this much more from managers
Show threadAnn HDec 19, 2023
@grimalkina This resonates. There’s also overall cognitive load and context switching. Putting too many complex hardships together and needing to move from one to the other when they may not be related is possibly a factor.
Show threadSteve FreemanNov 30, 2022
@grimalkina "consistently, people say that burnout from dealing with hypocrisy is worse than not having the technical skills or even not having money"
Show threadSiderea, Sibylla BostoniensisNov 29, 2022
@grimalkina Hey there! I was a software developer, and now am a psychotherapist. I am given to understand there is research finding the same thing in psychotherapists. Outsiders assume that psychotherapist burnout is a product of the high exposure to distressed patients and listening to horrors. While vicarious traumatization is a thing, burnout comes from feeling unsupported/undermined by management.
Show threadSiderea, Sibylla BostoniensisNov 29, 2022
@grimalkina This has a lot of face validity for therapists. Sitting with traumatized pts is just what we do, it's an ordinary Tuesday, and most of us are pretty accomplished at handling that. That's the good kind of hard. But junior therapists often have to (in some places by law) work in institutions that are outrageously exploitative and abusive and typically contemptuous of their front-line medical professionals.
Show threadSiderea, Sibylla BostoniensisNov 29, 2022

@grimalkina I've spent a lot of time on the net over the last few years in a forum for therapists, supporting junior therapists through burnout. It's an endemic problem.

We also have a term we use for a phenomenon we experience: being deskilled. It describes how someone who is being treated as incompetent or worthless by others loses access to their advanced clinical skills. The do not perform their job duties well, and seem to be bad at their jobs when this happens to them.

Show threadCat HicksNov 29, 2022
@siderea wow this is a compelling way to put it. I have seen this connection before but not thought of using a term like this, thank you
Show threadSiderea, Sibylla BostoniensisNov 29, 2022
@grimalkina You're very welcome. I assume there's literature on this, but I haven't seen it for myself.
Show threadCat HicksNov 29, 2022
@siderea so you and @CSLee need to talk, a clinical scientist turned developer researcher 😂😂💖💖! 100% agree on the source of burnout being this kind of betrayal experience
Show threadCarol LeeNov 30, 2022
@grimalkina @siderea hahaha omg I love this
Show threadPragmatic TeamsNov 30, 2022

@grimalkina That sneak peek looks interesting, because it seems to point to a lack of communication and knowledge management, and later on you mention that people need to be "protected" from that second kind of hard.

With respect to protection: according to your results, is that second hard perceived as "somebody else's job", or as something they need to improve on themselves (but e.g. haven't got the time for)?

Show threadKeithNov 30, 2022
@grimalkina Is this type 2 difficult stuff related to what Persig called "gumption traps" in _Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance_?
Show threadUma KarmarkarDec 23, 2022
@grimalkina So interesting! This seems related to the OB research on psychological safety in firms- like a practical/execution-based complement.
Show threadMartijn Faassen has movedNov 30, 2022
@grimalkina interesting that both sound like issues with communication, and memory
Show threadSasha Kotlyar 🌻 Nov 29, 2022
@grimalkina I wonder how much of this could relate all the way back to Larry Wall's three virtues of a great programmer... when we're unable to do those things, we might get demotivated...
Show threadCat HicksNov 29, 2022
@arktronic haha I think so. I think those 'three virtues' are a description of motivational processes that would apply to most human problem solving :)