blaineNov 12, 2022
"Mastodon sucks because any one of the 5000+ communities can set their own rules and might accidentally deprive people in that community of my witty hot takes for a reason I personally believe to be flippant" isn't the sick burn that the Twitter user with 50k followers thinks it is.
Show threadPelle WessmanNov 12, 2022

@blaine A slight problem with federated micro-Twitters versus fully decentralized IndieWeb setups in a way.

Mastodon instances amplify their users in a different way to actual independent web pages / the IndieWeb.

But still, yeah, you’re right. I’m just sad that eg the WebFinger setup ended up a lot less static site friendly than the original and is much more catered to micro-Twitters than to actually independent sites.

Show threadblaineNov 12, 2022

@voxpelli ❤️

For me, the webfinger stuff was/is just an idea - how can we give people an online name that they control?

(There's some new thinking in this direction that is very exciting, and I think better than any of our previous approaches!)

Show threadPelle WessmanNov 12, 2022

@blaine Yeah, I remember WebFinger itself never really being intended to be a spec in itself, rather just a pattern for how to apply Host Meta rules to usernames

Which new thinking are you referring to? IndieWeb ones? Crypto ones? Browser based ones?

Show threadSebastian LasseNov 14, 2022

@voxpelli @blaine

Please also note that webfinger is not part of any ActivityPub spec.
https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/#conformance
It is just a masto thing.

But the fediverse is so many wonderful softwares.

ActivityPub

The ActivityPub protocol is a decentralized social networking protocol based upon the [ActivityStreams] 2.0 data format. It provides a client to server API for creating, updating and deleting content, as well as a federated server to server API for delivering notifications and content.

Show threadPelle Wessman
@sl007 @blaine Yeah, OStatus was WebFinger, WebSub, ActivityStreams and Salmon. I guess ActivityPub has replaced the three latter?
Nov 14, 2022 at 1:44pmWeb
Show threadSebastian LasseNov 14, 2022

@voxpelli @blaine

well, for ActivityPub an URL is enough.
Just as it should be.

Only mastodon needs webfinger.

Show threadblaineNov 14, 2022

@sl007 @voxpelli the http spec also doesn't have anything to say about html, nor does webfinger say anything about ActivityPub, as it should be. Webfinger isn't "just a masto" thing, either - any social software will need to use the pattern if adoption and sharing is a concern.

It's perhaps best to think of webfinger as "DNS for people"

Show threadSteveNov 14, 2022
@blaine @sl007 @voxpelli Speaking of DNS... for email, I use my own domain name and I can use any email service provider I want and switch the provider by changing the DNS MX records. I wish there was something like that for the fediverse so my identity doesn't change when I move to another instance.
Show threadblaineNov 14, 2022
@steve @sl007 @voxpelli you can do that now! I don't have the link handy, but I've seen at least one guide to doing this without hosting your own instance. The tooling is really basic right now, but will get better. ❤️
Show threadPelle WessmanNov 14, 2022
@blaine @sl007 @steve here’s a link to how @[email protected] does it: https://tantek.com/2022/301/t1/twittermigration-bridgyfed-mastodon-indieweb
#TwitterMigration, first time? Have posted notes to https://tantek.com/ since 2010, POSSEd tweets & #AtomFeed. Added one .htaccess line today, and thanks to #BridgyFed, #Mastodon users can follow my #IndieWeb site @[email protected] No Mastodon install or account needed. Just one line in .htaccess: RewriteRule ^.well-known/(host-meta|webfinger).* https://fed.brid.gy/$0 [redirect=302,last] is enough for Mastodon users to search for and follow that @[email protected] username. Took a little more work to setup Bridgy Fed to push new posts to followers. Note by the way both the redundancy & awkwardness (it’s not a clickable URL) of such @-@ (AT-AT) usernames when you’re already using your own domain. Why can’t Mastodon follow a username of “@tantek.com”? Or just “tantek.com”? And either way expanding it internally if need be to the AT-AT syntax. Why this regression from what we had with classic feed readers where a domain was enough to discover & follow a feed? Also, why does following show a blank result? Contrast that with classic feed readers which immediately show you the most recent items in a feed you subscribed to. Lastly (for now), I asked around and no one knew of a simple public way to “preview” or “validate” that @[email protected] actually “worked”. You have to be *logged-in* to a Mastodon instance and search for a username to check to see if it works. Contrast that with https://validator.w3.org/feed/ which you can use without any log-in to validate your classic feed file. Why these regressions from the days of feed readers? - Tantek

Show threadSteveNov 14, 2022
@voxpelli @blaine @sl007 Thanks for the link. It looks like the fed.brid.gy bridge/proxy is the magic sauce. Maybe I could self-host something like that instead of a full instance to make my user id portable.
Bridgy Fed

Bridgy Fed is a bridge between decentralized social networks like the fediverse, Bluesky, and web sites and blogs.

Show threadPelle WessmanNov 14, 2022
@steve @sl007 @blaine That’s my plan. Will have my main home in the IndieWeb and then bridge it to the Fediverse.
Show threadEd DaviesNov 14, 2022

@blaine “It's perhaps best to think of webfinger as "DNS for people"”

I see it as more like DNS for resources (as in the R in URL). That could, of course, be a person but more usually it'll be a person's account. Webfinger acct:[email protected] returns different data from acct:[email protected].

@sl007 @voxpelli

Show threadblaineNov 14, 2022

@edavies @sl007 @voxpelli yup! I don't think of the two as oppositional, since people have multiple identities, depending on context.

But yeah, webfinger is also a useful construct to talk about things or anything where the underlying handler might change (different server, same name) but registering a domain or setting up a subdomain isn't easy. So, strictly not people, but I've always used that as a way to simplify the concept. ☺️

Show threadSebastian LasseNov 14, 2022

@blaine @edavies @voxpelli

"registering a domain or setting up a subdomain isn't easy"

Thank you hypercapitalists, the instance is a domain in every case.
It will not work without.

Here is the thing called the Open Web.
We are not sitting in a bird cage here.

Show threadSebastian LasseNov 14, 2022

@blaine @voxpelli

“any social software will need to use the pattern if adoption and sharing is a concern.”

I mean, the fediverse consists of many softwares.
Just see our Conferences
https://sebastianlasse.de/#home
And those who do only implement ActivityPub and no webfinger is superfine too.

I do not see any advantage.

ActivityPub Conference 2020 Virtual

A conference about the present and future of ActivityPub, the world’s leading federated social web standard. Presentations of prepared talks followed by a loosely structured unconference. #apconf

#apconf
Show threadblaineNov 14, 2022
@sl007 @voxpelli I appreciate your perspective. I think you're missing some important subtleties, but I've been having this debate with technologists who I believe are prone to missing important subtleties for nearly 15 years now since I introduced webfinger, and I don't think we're going to resolve it here. The world's a big tent, we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. ❤️
Show threadSebastian LasseNov 14, 2022

@blaine @voxpelli

Yes. Maybe.
Just hoped there would be arguments to use it.
Quite interesting when former twitter people tell the fediverse what it needs.
I did not say that webfinger is bad.

What I am saying is:
New implementors look at the official ActivityPub spec.
An implementor can be any human being in this world, even marginalized or disabled or even an anticapitalist working remote (crazy, I know).
This why I want that every kid can implement it !!!

They do not know that they need webfinger for implementation x but butter cream cookies for implementation y …
They just want to use it and interoperate. That worked all the time. Also without webfinger.
The problem is that webfinger is not part of the spec.

That's it.
If you believe it should be, this is what the Fediverse Enhacement Proposal Process (FEP) was made for or if it should be an official extension, the group can vote.

Just want to understand.

“I've been having this debate with technologists” - I am journalist and artist, sorry.

Show threadblaineNov 14, 2022

@sl007 I appreciate that, thanks.

For context: I wasn't just a Twitter employee, I created much of it but have been written out of the history because I am an anti-capitalist. I both tried to make twitter decentralized, creating the first fedi-instance with @ralphm and, when I was forced out of Twitter, was very involved in designing the protocols that became ActivityPub a decade later (thanks to the work of *many* people who came after).

Show threadblaineNov 14, 2022
@sl007 for what it's worth, I don't think webfinger should be inscribed in ActivityPub, any more than DNS should be in HTTP or HTML, and likewise webfinger shouldn't have anything to say about ActivityPub, just as DNS doesn't have anything to say about HTML or HTTP. They're complementary tools, and abstraction and decoupling here makes them all more powerful.
Show threadPelle WessmanNov 14, 2022

@blaine @sl007 +1, the web consists of URL:s and hyperlinks. Hyperlinks links together two URL:s and can specify a relation from one to another.

None of URL, Hypertext Markup Languages or Hypertext Transfer Protocols needs to know the semantics of a relation and that relation can be specified independently of them and by a user be composed into a new creation.

Relevant spec: https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc8288.html

We eg. did that at Flattr. We used rel-payment.

RFC 8288: Web Linking

Show threadSebastian LasseNov 14, 2022

@blaine @ralphm

I am just incredible pissed about the Bluesky thing. I can tell you background via DM.

Show threadPelle WessmanNov 14, 2022

@sl007 @blaine This is why I prefer the IndieWeb: It celebrates plurality and spec composition over a single monolithic specification which sees outside additions as a distraction.

(That + the fact that the IndieWeb is targeted at individuals, not instance admins)

(+ the rest of the principles: https://indieweb.org/principles)

I met @blaine at the Federated Social Web Summit in Berlin in 2011. Sadly the movement has been more sideways than forward since then.

principles

🗽 The IndieWeb Community is largely based on principles that we practice and aspire to, such as own your data and remember to have fun! You can read all of our guiding principles below.

IndieWeb
Show threadSebastian LasseNov 14, 2022

@voxpelli @blaine

“Sadly the movement has been more sideways than forward since then.”
Really? Might depend on the region. Look at my public broadcaster ZDF, e.g. Jan Böhmermann (caused an austrian fascist gov. to step down) got 108.000 followers here in a few days at his personal profile.

And we have got many assignments for Fedi Software (down to order a cab in Germany).
And I guess “EU voices” will just be the beginning [talked with the EU Commission to introduce ActivityPub to Tech lead also re. DSA], so I think that it is nice to have the EU gov. in the Fedi and it is a really great momentum.

I do also really appreciate that Eugen gave Time an interview.
https://time.com/6229230/mastodon-eugen-rochko-interview/

Personally also using mobilizon, lemmy, pixelfed, peertube and for books @[email protected]
and doing a project for Europes largest publishing house, unfortunately it was bought by a cheap TV station recently.
Please do not sell your most loved things, everybody.

Pelle, how about Scandinavian Media and the Fediverse?

Thousands Have Joined Mastodon Since Twitter Changed Hands. Its Founder Has a Vision for Democratizing Social Media

Thousands of users have joined Mastodon since Elon Musk took control of Twitter. Mastodon's founder Eugen Rochko says it's been a vindication

Time
Show threadPelle WessmanNov 14, 2022

@sl007 @blaine @[email protected] Traction is a different thing. Remember, Mastodon started out using the then pretty dead OStatus.

The traction is better now, especially thanks to Musk.

Technologically it’s not a massive step forward from 2011 I think. Eg. the discussion around WebFinger and such remains the same 😅

Regarding Scandinavian media: I pushed IndieWeb thoughts while on the biggest newspaper company in Scandinavia. Nothing happened.

Show threadSebastian LasseNov 14, 2022

@voxpelli @blaine @[email protected]

“Technologically it’s not a massive step forward from 2011 ”
well, for 25 years I only pressed the button and Kodak did the rest. Worked fine ;)

Hm I think in the last 15 dev. meetings pretty good ideas came out.
For instance there are some projects working together for generic Servers and diverse Clients.
The Client-To-Server is the most misunderstood and underrated part in AP.

And about Describing Potential Actions of Objects.
We really should stop to treat traditional Online Media as if we only have a blank sheet of paper and a pen.

I would really appreciate an open meeting. Chris Moser who is doing a federated forum also said “Maybe it's time to schedule another Developer's Meeting again?” https://github.com/yuforium/api/issues/12

Just a hello · Issue #12 · yuforium/api

Hey there, just wanted to say "hello" :) Before we dived into the assignment for the publishing house, I had also began with a server based on Nest It wasn't finished but is here http...

GitHub