Just learned about GridReader, a free tool for Blind programmers that might make it easier to explore complex nested code. My #Python experience is limited to experimenting with the BBC Microbit, and so far i've just set my screen reader to report indentation level. #Blind coders: how do you handle indentation and navigating complex code bases? Does GridReader seem useful? https://www.psu.edu/news/information-sciences-and-technology/story/new-coding-tool-could-aid-computer-programmers-who-are/?fbclid=IwAR1AFWy5E5XrPF8u__Lh3dke6AqTuhiNReqCIip0sarmGT1MppdFwHx4h74

@ChanceyFleet Honestly no, from reading the article. I know blind programmers that can fly when compared to sighted programmers, so saying that we often fall behind simply is not true. In fact, this is exactly why a lot of programmers (me included) have our speech rate up well past 800 words a minute (so we don't fall behind).

I've familiarized myself with loads of codebases over the years, and I think present tooling is plenty sufficient. VSCode is now fully accessible, meaning blind people now have access to a mainstream IDE. We also have tools for our screen readers to help us code better. As you mentioned, indentation with tones, and a handy little add-on called Indent Nav, that lets you treat indented code like a tree view.

This feels like another case of the Quorum programming language (obviously being a tool instead of a language), but same concept. A bunch of researchers that did some searching into how blind people code, and decided to make a hole new tool, without checking if alternatives are accessible/already exist. I appreciate the intent, but this is a really long winded way of saying no, I don't think its that useful.

@TheQuinbox @ChanceyFleet I actively work with the Quorum team. I'm interested in what you mean by tool versus a language? There's the IDE, Quorum Studio, but there is also the language, which from experience, I find a great starting language for people of many ages and abilities. I have used it with blind, low vision, autistic, and multi-diagnosed middle school students, as well as college bound high schoolers. As well as it being the language I first learned to code in, as an adult.

@rodda @ChanceyFleet I recommend against learning Quorum as a first language, actually. It doesn't seem to make it easy once you go beyond the framework, primarily because it wasn't meant for that, so that basically puts it into the same category as BGT, and we all saw how that ended -- people absolutely hating writing their games in it, having to write C++ wrappers to convert C interfaces to something BGT's extremely limited FFI support can understand, and not rewriting just because of how big their games are. I haven't tried this, but how hard is it to write truly performant software in Quorum? I'd assume extremely so, as as you need asynchronous IO, or parallelism similar to Go or Rust to make that a possibility.

Also, it uses all sorts of weird terms for actual programming stuff. repeat 10 times as opposed to a standard for loop? That just increases the curve when you hit a wall and want to try another language.

@TheQuinbox @ChanceyFleet Interesting. I have had no problem going from Quorum to Java. I see it as no more or less confusing than block languages, that are taught in schools as a first language. Students all seem to grasp basic concepts- variables, loops, repeats, objects, actions (methods), and arrays. The "repeat 10 times," comes from a study on why syntax made more sense, and led to fewer errors, for both novice and professional users. Most syntax in the language is from such studies.
@TheQuinbox @ChanceyFleet
As far as using Quorum for commercial grade applications, I have no idea, as I am "just" a CS teacher, and not in the working field. From my view as a teacher, the language is great for middle and secondary students.
@rodda @ChanceyFleet Fair enough. I personally see no harm in teaching a mainstream programming language to students (especially because there are no Quorum jobs and Quorum is kind of a blindness-specific thing), as well as the fact that my school taught us Python and it went quite well, but I can see that I suppose.
@TheQuinbox @rodda I work mostly with adult learners (although sometimes i get to work with youth) and i prefer to teach mainstream options, because it's easier to get peer support, find things online etc when the community is large and enthusiastic. That said, i've never done a Quorum deep dive and maybe i'm missing out. What are some fun /engaging projects your students have done with it?
@ChanceyFleet @TheQuinbox Besides robots, students have made video games, a stat rolling app for RPGs, a writing prompt app, and started a language translation app. Mostly video games. And most of my classes have been AP CSP, so they get about a semester of programming. Or they were classes that only met 2 or 3 times a week. So progress was slow.