alcinnzApr 15, 2022

Quoting an anonymous Twitter user (got harrassed for these statements):

"Safari is buggy" is a valid criticism.

"Safari is behind Chrome in features" is not a valid criticism.

Never forget that the browser vendors, including Google and Apple, seized control of the web from the W3C. These few companies have too much power over the web, period.

1/8

Show threadalcinnzApr 15, 2022

The web has massive feature bloat. It's a privacy and security nightmare.

I personally think we should abolish JavaScript and not allow arbitrary remotely loaded code to execute on our computers.

"I want web sites to do everything a native app can do" is a suicidal mistake.

2/8

Show threadalcinnzApr 15, 2022

The more features that are added to the web, the less browser competition is possible! This is essential to recognize.

And Google knows it! That's the whole point.

Who can keep up with Google? Mozilla can't. Apple can't. Even Microsoft threw in the towel and adopted Chromium.

3/8

Show threadalcinnz

Imagine a small company trying to write their own web browser from scratch nowadays. It's just not possible! The web is so complex, there's no choice but to adopt one of the few existing browser engines: Chromium, WebKit, Gecko. That's it. The competitive landscape is bleak.

4/8

"Everyone has to adopt Chromium" is exactly Google's plan.

Who controls the dominant browser engine controls the web.

5/8

Apr 15, 2022 at 10:54pmWeb
Show threadalcinnzApr 15, 2022

In a sense, there's no point in even having "web standards" anymore.

Web standards theoretically allow *anybody* to implement a browser engine. But if the "standards" are sufficiently huge, then practically *nobody* can implement a browser engine.

6/8

Show threadalcinnzApr 15, 2022

I've personally implemented software from scratch using RFC as a guide, in several different areas.

But a web browser engine? Forget it!

The "standards" now are nothing more than Chromium, WebKit, Gecko, and their individual quirks. How can there be a new engine?

7/8

The web is not "open" if nobody new can write a web browser engine. It's the illusion of openness.

8/8 Fin!

Show threadAmolithApr 15, 2022
@alcinnz this is very good thread, thank you for cross-posting ​​

the web browsers interact with is so bad ​​
Show threadRiedlerApr 16, 2022
@alcinnz In my opinion, much of the HTML5 spec is actually pretty useful. Most of the unnecessary bloat comes from JavaScript. I also don't think we should abolish js, sometimes a little scripting is needed. But it's way too overcomplicated, and many many features should just be dropped. Let it control the DOM, receive events, and then let it stay at that. That's all it needs to be able to do.
Show threadalcinnzApr 16, 2022

@Riedler I've got a lot of thoughts here, but right now I think I'd say that for filling such a role, I'd say the Sun's hyping of Java at the time led to some terrible decisions which no one likes.

To make it reasonable to reimplement the DOM the standards need to be taken to scratch...

Show threadBob Mottram :debian:Apr 16, 2022
@alcinnz The real question then is given the state of web browser engines then what is to be done? Maybe start a movement based around a subset of web standards which are easier to implement and maintain (weblite).

The other option, which seems more likely to me, is that browsers just become webassembly virtual machines. What the browser is in most cases these days is just a software delivery platform with (theoretically) write once run anywhere capability.
Show threadalcinnzApr 16, 2022

@bob I'm personally taking the former route, there's a lot to love about HTML/CSS *mostly* as-is! For whatever reason there's already *plenty* of sites which adhear to a reasonable subset!

I wouldn't mind if webapps went full webassembly eventually asking webdevs to reimplement text layout, event dispatch, etc *inside* the sandbox. There's a possibility the web could evolve into something reasonable that way. But I'm not personally invested in the survival of webapps.

Show threadMichael9Apr 17, 2022

@bob Someone(s) are going to have to build new generations of browsers, aiming for compatibility with the chosen set of standards.

Standards and competing implementations is what made the first versions of the open web what they were.

This is part of why the world letting the web collapse onto the chromium engine was such a "bad thing".

Show threadVegard (Hårfagre) Fjeldberg eoApr 17, 2022
@bob Im looking into gemini right now, I have not heard of weblite. What is the relationship between these?
Show threadWayne WernerOct 31, 2022
@alcinnz If your website doesn't work in Lynx you don't have a website you have a GoogleSite.
Show threadhobsApr 16, 2022
@alcinnz not only are the standards huge and incomprehensible, they are changing.unpredictably and often
Show threadalcinnzApr 16, 2022
@hobson Yes, it leads me to flinch whenever I hear the words "living standard"!
Show threadhaatosyndromeApr 16, 2022
@hobson It's not practical to develop an entire engine from the ground up. New browsers just use chrome since it's easier to integrate than the firefox's one.
Show threadgrob (teeth era) 🇺🇦🏳️‍🌈🏳️‍⚧️Apr 16, 2022
@alcinnz
Code is law. Here too.
Show threadrobrykApr 17, 2022
@alcinnz Even in such a world, there's still a point to them: having a well-written description of semantics you can _expect_ from a browser (does not necessarily mean that you'll get them, but it's easy to argue that something is a bug when it contravenes the specification that it is supposed to implement).
Show threadChris TrottierApr 15, 2022
@alcinnz This is something @reiver talks about often.
Show threadveer66Apr 19, 2022
@alcinnz Even Servo isn't yet usable. 😿