Spammy Snarker L.J.

Kinda geeking out about what Chinese historians said about #Buyeo, an ancient Koreanic kingdom in northern Manchuria & Primorsky Krai. "Their interpreter kneels with hands on the ground and listens quietly before speaking. The people of that Iand are courteous and reserved."

This is of course in stark contrast to what they had to say about #Goguryeo, the other major Koreanic kingdom in Manchuria whose people the Chinese books are forever badmouthing for being rude, loud, and uncouth. (It's probably relevant that the Chinese dynasties and Goguryeoh were always clashing, while Buyeoh was a steadfast Chinese ally.) Goguryeoh people carried themselves differently too, stretching out a leg when they knelt, by which I understand everyone in Goguryeoh was bi which works out great for my story. #history #Korea

Oct 30, 2020 at 6:10amWeb
Show threadSpammy Snarker L.J.Oct 30, 2020

It's also verrry interesting that the history says Buyeo people look like the Yilu, a Tungus-speaking people who dwelt in Primorsky Krai and who were subjugated by Buyeo before they escaped into the mountains and fought back with poison arrows. (Yes, stick it to my asshole ancestors! Doing amazing sweeties~) The Buyeo language was Koreanic like Goguryeoh's, though, so they represent a clear link between the Tungus and Koreanic peoples I can't believe this isn't talked about more omg??

But I know why, of course. Gotta keep up the gross and xenophobic narrative of a single, pure people, and also gotta distance ourselves from the "barbarian" races, right? 😒 It's fine to say we ruled over them, but to admit we were genetically mingled? A bridge too far, evidently.

Show threadSpammy Snarker L.J.Oct 30, 2020
Me: What will this new book tell me about the origins of the Korean people? 😆
Book: Yeah most of the research on the origins of the Korean people is bullshit actually
Me: 
Show threadSpammy Snarker L.J.Oct 30, 2020
Of course I bought the book, it has an extensive bibliography and I really need to look at the research I've been doing for the past uh... 10 years...? with a critical eye.
Show threadSpammy Snarker L.J.Oct 30, 2020
Ohhh I was irritated with this book for not having footnotes/references and for stating the conclusions without showing the work, until I read the foreword and realized it was the third of a series meant to be accessible to average readers unlike the previous works, so evidently the author has written a more scholarly treatise in the two preceding books--which were not carried by the bookstore, nor did the book jacket or any other material show them, so it was pretty confusing lol. Looks like I have more books to order!
Show threadSpammy Snarker L.J.Oct 30, 2020
It doesn't help that this author's idea of being accessible to the average reader is shit-talking a bunch of researchers using a pile of barely-explained terms of art. It reads more like the rantings in someone's research notes than a book meant for general OR scholarly consumption. Some editor fumbled their author-wrangling roll smh.
Show threadSpammy Snarker L.J.Oct 30, 2020
Fortunately I am in the market for obscure research note rantings on this subject, and one thing I really appreciate about this ornery and abrupt work is that it questions a lot of the assumptions behind popular theories about Korean origins; the uncritical acceptance of the centrality of Northern/nomad origins, for one, and the disregard of populations indigenous to the peninsula. My own work was falling into that trap largely because this Northern narrative is SO dominant in research communities, so this is a much-needed counterargument.
Show threadSpammy Snarker L.J.Oct 30, 2020
Which isn't to say the book is perfect, and the presentation isn't helping its case. In trying to counter the dominance of Northern origins the author seems to be downplaying a lot of evidence/records that point to the groups in Manchuria being kin to the ones in the Korean peninsula, and the influence of the Northern groups on the Southern ones such as the advent of cavalry. I'm open to persuasion on this point, but I'll need to see the work first and this third volume isn't doing that job.
Show threadSpammy Snarker L.J.Oct 30, 2020
Also much respect to this author for acknowledging assimilated Manchurian-Tungus groups as part of the Korean people. This is one of the few "Northern" origins he gives credence to based on genetic evidence, in fact. I always give respect to people who give precedence to facts (as far as they can be determined) over prejudice and xenophobia.
Show threadSpammy Snarker L.J.Oct 30, 2020

Y chromosome research points to indigenous Koreans and Japanese coming from Southeast Asia through the South China coast and over Kyushu during the Ice Age? *dies of excitement*

I'll want to check the research, of course, but you gotta love how none of the books I've read so far even mentioned this research other than a vague mention of speculative Southern/Dravidian origins (implied to be distinctly lesser than the Northern branch of equestrian nomads) because all of them were so busy obsessing over Mongolian nomad origins.

Show threadSpammy Snarker L.J.Oct 30, 2020
Yeah of course the origin theory pushed by the North Korean regime is the most outright xenophobic of all 😒 their idea of "pure-blooded" Koreans originating from Pyeongyang (lmaoooo whut) is of course entirely contradicted by the existence of three distinct Y-chromosome haplogroups in the Korean population--from China, over the SE Asia-Kyushu route (the group the author calls indigenous), and Tungus/Manchurian, in order of prevalence.
Show threadSpammy Snarker L.J.Oct 30, 2020

That said, I disagree with the author calling this large China-originated group of Koreans "Han," because for starters the term confuses ethnicity with genetics. Han is an ethnic group, not a genetic one, and the fact that this China-originated group shares the O3 haplogroup prevalent among modern Han tells us what area they are from but not by itself what their culture was.

For another, as the author himself said, given the super-dominant nature of Han culture, if 45% of Koreans originated from Chinese speakers it's highly likely Koreans today would be speaking Chinese or an offshoot rather than that the Chinese speakers would have picked up Korean, and so completely that no traces of Chinese grammar remain in the language.

Show threadSpammy Snarker L.J.Oct 30, 2020
I think what's likelier is that these Sino- Koreans (in the ancient, not modern sense) were Dongyi, "Eastern barbarians" who had significant genetic overlap with the Han but were linguistically and culturally distinct. That would explain why Hanyu didn't overtake Korean, because they were not Hanyu speakers but rather spoke a language, or languages, that contributed to the language we would come to recognize as Korean.
Show threadSpammy Snarker L.J.Oct 30, 2020
I should sleep but I'm so excited I'm vibrating. There's so much to revise, not just in my plans for the story but my understanding of ancient history itself!
Show threadSpammy Snarker L.J.Oct 30, 2020

And now I have to revise my mythological image of the formation of the Korean people; less of grim archer horselords riding down from the North though that is certainly still there, more of Great Mother giant goddesses building island bridges in the sea because the latter is so much more suggestive of the way the first Koreans evidently came to the peninsula, walking over land bridges in the cold days when the sea had pulled away.

(I never talked about the Korean giant goddesses on here, did I. That is terrible and remiss of me.)

Show threadWanderingBeekeeperOct 30, 2020
@ljwrites got my attention with Great Mother giant goddesses building land bridges. I see these massive proto-Korean women standing hip-deep in the ocean, gently moving titanic volumes of earth and stone with waves of a fan to create the routes for Their children, and it's a much more attractive image than grim horselords thundering down from the north.
Show threadSpammy Snarker L.J.Oct 30, 2020
@WanderingBeekeeper Completely agreed! They were far more, shall we say, earthy though, scooping up the earth with their huge skirts and making hills and mountains where the soil fell. Giant underpants and a rock formation broken off by a piss one of these Great Mothers took also appear in the tales. These were strong working women and not the ethereal beauties that would appear later under Chinese influence.
Show threadClifstanOct 30, 2020
@ljwrites Really interesting thread, thank you! (And thanks @error_1202 for boosting it so I saw it!)
Show threadSpammy Snarker L.J.Oct 30, 2020
I dare you to name a better creation tale than "The world began when a giant goddess woke up and farted, making pillars of fire soar into the sky."
Show threadSpammy Snarker L.J.Oct 30, 2020
That one is from Jeju Island, which is as you can probably guess a volcanic island. Move over, Pele and every other volcanic deity, we have a FART volcanic goddess and she rules.
Show threadSpammy Snarker L.J.Oct 30, 2020
Unlike a lot of people who let a big one rip the Great Mother cleaned up her own mess, putting out the fire by shoveling sea water and dirt over it, then making Halla (biggest mountain on the island) by carrying and dumping a huge mound of dirt in her skirt. The dirt that fell through the holes in her skirt became smaller hills. She also created a smaller island by breaking off a rock with the force of her pissing, which I totally sympathize with because I sometimes go too long between bathroom breaks, too. #Relatable
Show threadSpammy Snarker L.J.Oct 30, 2020
Her piss was not only strong enough to break rock, it was also the source of seaweeds, octopi, abalone, and fish that enriched the sea. So the next time you enjoy a nice seafood meal, remember to thank the Great Mother goddess and her potent urine 🙏
Show threadSpammy Snarker L.J.Oct 30, 2020
You think I'm pulling your leg, aren't you?! I am not, run your machine translator of choice on this page. https://folkency.nfm.go.kr/kr/topic/detail/5362 If I were making it up I'd have made it much less outrageous.
Show threadStevenOct 30, 2020

@ljwrites

"I'll make you a bridge if you make me some underwear."

It feels both relatable as well as outrageous.

Show threadSpammy Snarker L.J.Oct 30, 2020
One thing that really gets me about this Great Mother's story is that she is so evocative of the women of Jeju Island--a big working woman carrying heavy dirt in a patched and frayed skirt, having to wash her one skirt over and over because there weren't enough materials to make more, raising too many children on too little (although I doubt any mortal woman had 500 sons like the goddess did), diving over and over, as the women divers did, until she drowned.
Show threadSpammy Snarker L.J.Oct 30, 2020
Anyway, the giant goddesses deserve their own thread and not to be tacked onto a novel-length thread that started with something else entirely. Back to yelling at the book about Korean origins.