C.<post comment about current event>
"That came out yesterday! How is that news?!?!"
It's news to people who haven't seen it yet. That's how "news" works.
Stop me if this is too detailed for you.
Yet another Josh 
@sillyCoelophysis @thatfrisiangirlish
Seriously, fuck the #mastodonHOA
All I see about everyone here howling about "CW CW CW wahhhh" reminds me when busybody neighbors demand you do their bidding.
Nah.
I'm anti-AI. Lord, if you read me at all, you'd know I'm extremely anti-AI. I don't use it, I don't endorse it, I criticize it, I anti-evangelize about it, I write letters to business people and politicians asking them to stop using it.
But I'm more "anti" orange pedophile fascist racist misogynist corrupt authoritarian Trump than I am anti-AI, and this was *funny*.
So I'm sorry that my use of the internet and the fediverse didn't meet your high standards. I suggest you ignore, mute, or block me - we'll probably both be happier that way.
#MastodonHOA #HOA #ReplyGuy #TinPotDictator #LdE #comedy #ThanksMattBlaze
standev@hopland i don’t think that’s what she was asking boss, nobody likes the #mastodonHOA
Jupiter Rowland@KB I know that professional Web developers scream in pain and agony when they see alt-texts in the Fediverse.
But what every last single one of them has apparently failed to understand so far: Mastodon's alt-text culture was not introduced by professional Web developers with certificates in accessible Web design. It was introduced by complete laypeople and only on the ground of Mastodon having an alt-text field.
These complete laypeople defined their own "standards" for alt-texts and image descriptions without knowing anything about professional accessible Web design. And they set these "standards" in stone before professional Web designers could come and intervene and push everyone and the whole thing into the "right" direction.
Thus, Mastodon has vastly different values for alt-texts than professional Web design, and these values spread from Mastodon to "Mastodon satellites" like Pixelfed (whereas many other areas of the Fediverse neither know nor care for alt-texts or accessibility at all in the first place). Professional Web design requires concise, to-the-point brevity. Many Mastodon users actually love to have some whimsy in alt-text. If you, as a professional Web designer, write whimsical alt-text, you're probably fired. If you don't write it whimsical in the Fediverse, you'll probably bore people.
Besides, the Fediverse works differently from the Web in terms of technology. Alt-text standards for the Web, including blogs, are built on the assumption that everyone and everything has an unlimited amount of characters at hand as well as the whole HTML feature set. You have a more complex image, you give it an alt-text and a caption (
Of all these things, the Fediverse has only got the alt-text. Most of the Fediverse can't generate captions; of all the server applications that aren't specialised on long-form blogging, only (streams) and Forte can have HTML in posts. Most of the Fediverse can't even render captions. Hell, most of the Fediverse can't render images embedded in the post because it only knows images as file attachments. And most Fediverse users can't give extensive explanations. Neither can they write an external explanation document and link to it in their posts, nor can they explain the image in the post itself, what with usually only 500 characters available (minus content warning, minus hashtags, minus mentions). In fact, post over 500 characters at once, and you've got a good chunk of Mastodon at your throat.
Also, speaking of character limits, Mastodon has a culture of, "We've got 1,500 characters for alt-text, so why not use them?" And I'm not even talking about using alt-text to write around Mastodon's default 500-character limit. I'm talking about not exactly few people especially on Mastodon loving highly detailed image descriptions.
In fact, my personal experience and conclusion from having studied Mastodon's alt-text and image description culture in-depth for more than two years is that people don't like to have to ask. If they want to know something about an image, they want to have that information served on a silver platter right away without having to ask. As someone who posts images, having people ask for detail descriptions or even only detail explanations feels almost akin to having people ask for an image description in the first place.
Like in professional Web design, you have to know who your audience is because you have to cater to that audience perfectly. But unlike in professional Web design which supposes that people only come across a website if they actively search for that content, you cannot pinpoint your audience unless you don't post in public. Your audience is potentially the entire Fediverse because anyone out there may or may not stumble upon your post this or that way, e.g. happen upon it while browsing their federated timeline.
Build a website about some scientific or technological topic, and probably only those will find it who look for it, and they'll have enough knowledge to understand it right off the bat. You can expect sufficient prior knowledge, and you're justified to do so. Write a blog post about such a topic, it's all the same.
Write a Fediverse post about such a topic, and most of those who happen upon it won't even know what you're talking about without extensive explanations. Nonetheless, they may be curious, and/or they may simply consider it ableist to not have all information needed to understand both the post and the images in the post handed to them right on the spot. You have to expect at least some of your readers not knowing anything about your post and the topic it covers, but expecting to receive the missing information without having to ask.
I think I'm not entirely wrong about this, seeing as the main topic of this channel is one of the most obscure niche topics that exist in the Fediverse. This is why, all in all, I probably write the longest, most detailed image descriptions in the whole Fediverse by a gigantic margin.
There's one more thing: All that professional Web designers do about alt-texts they don't like is complain about them and complain "into the ether", probably often even without any hashtags to find their posts. They don't do anything to actually enforce professional accessibility standards in the Fediverse.
On the other hand, there is the alt-text police, a part of the Mastodon Home Owners' Association. They do enforce their (not even really fully standardised) idea of good alt-text by sanctioning Fediverse users who don't produce such alt-text. They "mansplain" these users, they out-right attack these users, they dogpile these users, they block these users, they sometimes even call for such users to be Fediblocked. And I can actually see their alt-text quality standards being raised further and further. I guess it won't be long until people are being sanctioned for writing alt-texts by professional Web accessibility standards because they aren't sufficient for the alt-text police.
#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #Mastodon #MastodonCulture #MastodonHOA #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta #AltTextPolice #A11y #Accessibility
But what every last single one of them has apparently failed to understand so far: Mastodon's alt-text culture was not introduced by professional Web developers with certificates in accessible Web design. It was introduced by complete laypeople and only on the ground of Mastodon having an alt-text field.
These complete laypeople defined their own "standards" for alt-texts and image descriptions without knowing anything about professional accessible Web design. And they set these "standards" in stone before professional Web designers could come and intervene and push everyone and the whole thing into the "right" direction.
Thus, Mastodon has vastly different values for alt-texts than professional Web design, and these values spread from Mastodon to "Mastodon satellites" like Pixelfed (whereas many other areas of the Fediverse neither know nor care for alt-texts or accessibility at all in the first place). Professional Web design requires concise, to-the-point brevity. Many Mastodon users actually love to have some whimsy in alt-text. If you, as a professional Web designer, write whimsical alt-text, you're probably fired. If you don't write it whimsical in the Fediverse, you'll probably bore people.
Besides, the Fediverse works differently from the Web in terms of technology. Alt-text standards for the Web, including blogs, are built on the assumption that everyone and everything has an unlimited amount of characters at hand as well as the whole HTML feature set. You have a more complex image, you give it an alt-text and a caption (
<figcaption>) and, if necessary, either an extensive explanation in the text below or a link to an extensive explanation.Of all these things, the Fediverse has only got the alt-text. Most of the Fediverse can't generate captions; of all the server applications that aren't specialised on long-form blogging, only (streams) and Forte can have HTML in posts. Most of the Fediverse can't even render captions. Hell, most of the Fediverse can't render images embedded in the post because it only knows images as file attachments. And most Fediverse users can't give extensive explanations. Neither can they write an external explanation document and link to it in their posts, nor can they explain the image in the post itself, what with usually only 500 characters available (minus content warning, minus hashtags, minus mentions). In fact, post over 500 characters at once, and you've got a good chunk of Mastodon at your throat.
Also, speaking of character limits, Mastodon has a culture of, "We've got 1,500 characters for alt-text, so why not use them?" And I'm not even talking about using alt-text to write around Mastodon's default 500-character limit. I'm talking about not exactly few people especially on Mastodon loving highly detailed image descriptions.
In fact, my personal experience and conclusion from having studied Mastodon's alt-text and image description culture in-depth for more than two years is that people don't like to have to ask. If they want to know something about an image, they want to have that information served on a silver platter right away without having to ask. As someone who posts images, having people ask for detail descriptions or even only detail explanations feels almost akin to having people ask for an image description in the first place.
Like in professional Web design, you have to know who your audience is because you have to cater to that audience perfectly. But unlike in professional Web design which supposes that people only come across a website if they actively search for that content, you cannot pinpoint your audience unless you don't post in public. Your audience is potentially the entire Fediverse because anyone out there may or may not stumble upon your post this or that way, e.g. happen upon it while browsing their federated timeline.
Build a website about some scientific or technological topic, and probably only those will find it who look for it, and they'll have enough knowledge to understand it right off the bat. You can expect sufficient prior knowledge, and you're justified to do so. Write a blog post about such a topic, it's all the same.
Write a Fediverse post about such a topic, and most of those who happen upon it won't even know what you're talking about without extensive explanations. Nonetheless, they may be curious, and/or they may simply consider it ableist to not have all information needed to understand both the post and the images in the post handed to them right on the spot. You have to expect at least some of your readers not knowing anything about your post and the topic it covers, but expecting to receive the missing information without having to ask.
I think I'm not entirely wrong about this, seeing as the main topic of this channel is one of the most obscure niche topics that exist in the Fediverse. This is why, all in all, I probably write the longest, most detailed image descriptions in the whole Fediverse by a gigantic margin.
There's one more thing: All that professional Web designers do about alt-texts they don't like is complain about them and complain "into the ether", probably often even without any hashtags to find their posts. They don't do anything to actually enforce professional accessibility standards in the Fediverse.
On the other hand, there is the alt-text police, a part of the Mastodon Home Owners' Association. They do enforce their (not even really fully standardised) idea of good alt-text by sanctioning Fediverse users who don't produce such alt-text. They "mansplain" these users, they out-right attack these users, they dogpile these users, they block these users, they sometimes even call for such users to be Fediblocked. And I can actually see their alt-text quality standards being raised further and further. I guess it won't be long until people are being sanctioned for writing alt-texts by professional Web accessibility standards because they aren't sufficient for the alt-text police.
#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #Mastodon #MastodonCulture #MastodonHOA #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta #AltTextPolice #A11y #Accessibility
Eric Phelps@capngloval "You're walking on the wrong side of the bike trail."
"You should be wearing hiking boots."
We should make a list. Hmmm, there should be a tag. Ooh, let's look! There's both #Karen and #MastodonHOA. But not nearly as much activity there as I'd think. Maybe because if you use one of those tags inappropriately, someone will tell you you're doing it wrong 😂.
@Nora Reed Image description + explanations in the post itself.
And if you want to satisfy the alt-text police of the Mastodon HOA as well: image description (which can be short and concise) with no explanations in the alt-text, image description (which can be longer) with explanations in the post.
#FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #AltTextPolice #MastodonHOA
And if you want to satisfy the alt-text police of the Mastodon HOA as well: image description (which can be short and concise) with no explanations in the alt-text, image description (which can be longer) with explanations in the post.
#FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #AltTextPolice #MastodonHOA
@scxbi Da bin ich lieber vorsichtig.
Ich rechne ständig damit, daß Leute von der Mastodon HOA, Abteilung Alt-Text-Polizei, auch dann fehlenden Alt-Text sanktionieren, wenn das Bild im Post beschrieben ist, weil sie eisern die Regel durchsetzen wollen, daß jedes Bild im Fediverse einen hinreichend detaillierten und akkuraten Alt-Text haben muß.
Ich selbst muß meine eigenen Bilder notwendigerweise hochdetailliert beschreiben. Dazu kommen dann noch genug Erklärungen, damit wirklich jeder meine Bilderposts sofort versteht, egal, wie obskur das Thema auch sein mag. Und dazu kommen Transkripte von allem an Text im Bild. Ich brauche auch mal Stunden oder Tage, um ein einziges Bild zu beschreiben. Das Ergebnis ist eine Bildbeschreibung, die alle "normalen" Zeichenlimits im Fediverse um Größenordnungen übertrifft und auch deshalb direkt in den Post geht statt in den Alt-Text. (kein Problem hier, mein Zeichenlimit ist nicht 500, sondern über 16 Millionen). Das ist anstrengend genug, daß ich nicht alle paar Tage Bilder posten kann.
Da will ich nicht noch dafür angeschnauzt werden oder anderweitig auf den Deckel bekommen, daß das Bild keinen Alt-Text hat.
Also schreibe ich immer zusätzlich eine Bildbeschreibung für den Alt-Text, wobei meine Alt-Texte auch regelmäßig bei exakt 1500 Zeichen oder einigen wenigen darunter liegen. Vorsicht ist die Mutter der Porzellankiste.
Das heißt, Leute, die noch auf alten Mastodon-Versionen sind, wo Inhaltswarnungen die Bilder noch nicht verstecken, sehen eh erstmal nur das Bild, aber nicht den Post-Text, den ich wegen seiner Überlänge (= über 500 Zeichen) hinter einer Zusammenfassung und Inhaltswarnung verstecke. Das heißt, die sehen die lange Bildbeschreibung gar nicht, also wissen sie nicht, daß sie existiert.
Deswegen gibt's von mir im Alt-Text nicht nur eine Bildbeschreibung, die hoffentlich detailliert genug ist (auch wenn ich unmöglich die ganzen Text-Transkripte mit darin unterbringen kann), sondern auch einen Hinweis auf die lange Bildbeschreibung, und wo sie zu finden ist.
#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #LangerPost #CWLangerPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #Bildbeschreibung #Bildbeschreibungen #BildbeschreibungenMeta #CWBildbeschreibungenMeta #MastodonHOA #AltTextPolizei
Ich rechne ständig damit, daß Leute von der Mastodon HOA, Abteilung Alt-Text-Polizei, auch dann fehlenden Alt-Text sanktionieren, wenn das Bild im Post beschrieben ist, weil sie eisern die Regel durchsetzen wollen, daß jedes Bild im Fediverse einen hinreichend detaillierten und akkuraten Alt-Text haben muß.
Ich selbst muß meine eigenen Bilder notwendigerweise hochdetailliert beschreiben. Dazu kommen dann noch genug Erklärungen, damit wirklich jeder meine Bilderposts sofort versteht, egal, wie obskur das Thema auch sein mag. Und dazu kommen Transkripte von allem an Text im Bild. Ich brauche auch mal Stunden oder Tage, um ein einziges Bild zu beschreiben. Das Ergebnis ist eine Bildbeschreibung, die alle "normalen" Zeichenlimits im Fediverse um Größenordnungen übertrifft und auch deshalb direkt in den Post geht statt in den Alt-Text. (kein Problem hier, mein Zeichenlimit ist nicht 500, sondern über 16 Millionen). Das ist anstrengend genug, daß ich nicht alle paar Tage Bilder posten kann.
Da will ich nicht noch dafür angeschnauzt werden oder anderweitig auf den Deckel bekommen, daß das Bild keinen Alt-Text hat.
Also schreibe ich immer zusätzlich eine Bildbeschreibung für den Alt-Text, wobei meine Alt-Texte auch regelmäßig bei exakt 1500 Zeichen oder einigen wenigen darunter liegen. Vorsicht ist die Mutter der Porzellankiste.
Das heißt, Leute, die noch auf alten Mastodon-Versionen sind, wo Inhaltswarnungen die Bilder noch nicht verstecken, sehen eh erstmal nur das Bild, aber nicht den Post-Text, den ich wegen seiner Überlänge (= über 500 Zeichen) hinter einer Zusammenfassung und Inhaltswarnung verstecke. Das heißt, die sehen die lange Bildbeschreibung gar nicht, also wissen sie nicht, daß sie existiert.
Deswegen gibt's von mir im Alt-Text nicht nur eine Bildbeschreibung, die hoffentlich detailliert genug ist (auch wenn ich unmöglich die ganzen Text-Transkripte mit darin unterbringen kann), sondern auch einen Hinweis auf die lange Bildbeschreibung, und wo sie zu finden ist.
#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #LangerPost #CWLangerPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #Bildbeschreibung #Bildbeschreibungen #BildbeschreibungenMeta #CWBildbeschreibungenMeta #MastodonHOA #AltTextPolizei
Jebus. You really think he doesn't already know that?
The Mastodon HOA is still alive and well, it seems.
@Justin Derrick The question, however, is: What is "high-quality"? How is it defined?
Would the bot go by the definition valid for commercial/scientific/technological websites and blogs, i.e. ideally no more than 125 characters, and only a short and concise visual description with no further information?
Or would the bot go by Mastodon's culture and Mastodon's standards, i.e. the longer and more detailed, the better, any and all extra information is welcome in alt-text (because it doesn't fit into the toot), and the limit is 1,500 characters?
That is, if it were for me, the bot would go look both for alt-texts and for image descriptions in the post text body and judge both. Because I do both at the same time for my original images. An extremely detailed long image description in the post itself (character limit for post and alt-texts combined here: over 16 million) that also comes with all necessary explanations and transcripts of all text in the image, plus an alt-text that's as detailed as 1,500 characters (minus notification about the long description in the post) allow, but with no explanations, and I usually have to leave out text transcripts as well because they're too many.
You may say the alt-text is superfluous if it's just a much shorter version of the long description. But as long as the Mastodon HOA demands there be an alt-text to every image, no matter what (especially seeing as I always hide my image posts behind summaries/content warnings, so you can't see right of the bat that there's a long image description in the post), I add alt-texts to my original images.
I'm actually curious about how the bot would judge my descriptions. Maybe it'd flag them "inadequate" because it notices that the bits of text in the image are not transcribed in the alt-text. Maybe it'd be irritated because I have headlines in my long image descriptions, because they're so long that they need two levels of headlines. Maybe it'd flag them "inadequate" because it goes strictly by WCAG, and a) the alt-texts exceed 200 characters, b) long image descriptions do not belong into the text body by any known official accessibility standards, and c) neither my alt-texts nor my long descriptions are limited to what's supposed to be important within the context of the post.
Anyway, in the meantime, you can follow the account @Alt Text Hall of Fame and the hashtag #AltTextHallOfFame.
CC: @Simon Brooke
#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #MastodonHOA #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta
Would the bot go by the definition valid for commercial/scientific/technological websites and blogs, i.e. ideally no more than 125 characters, and only a short and concise visual description with no further information?
Or would the bot go by Mastodon's culture and Mastodon's standards, i.e. the longer and more detailed, the better, any and all extra information is welcome in alt-text (because it doesn't fit into the toot), and the limit is 1,500 characters?
That is, if it were for me, the bot would go look both for alt-texts and for image descriptions in the post text body and judge both. Because I do both at the same time for my original images. An extremely detailed long image description in the post itself (character limit for post and alt-texts combined here: over 16 million) that also comes with all necessary explanations and transcripts of all text in the image, plus an alt-text that's as detailed as 1,500 characters (minus notification about the long description in the post) allow, but with no explanations, and I usually have to leave out text transcripts as well because they're too many.
You may say the alt-text is superfluous if it's just a much shorter version of the long description. But as long as the Mastodon HOA demands there be an alt-text to every image, no matter what (especially seeing as I always hide my image posts behind summaries/content warnings, so you can't see right of the bat that there's a long image description in the post), I add alt-texts to my original images.
I'm actually curious about how the bot would judge my descriptions. Maybe it'd flag them "inadequate" because it notices that the bits of text in the image are not transcribed in the alt-text. Maybe it'd be irritated because I have headlines in my long image descriptions, because they're so long that they need two levels of headlines. Maybe it'd flag them "inadequate" because it goes strictly by WCAG, and a) the alt-texts exceed 200 characters, b) long image descriptions do not belong into the text body by any known official accessibility standards, and c) neither my alt-texts nor my long descriptions are limited to what's supposed to be important within the context of the post.
Anyway, in the meantime, you can follow the account @Alt Text Hall of Fame and the hashtag #AltTextHallOfFame.
CC: @Simon Brooke
#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #MastodonHOA #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta