Mastodawn

avocado goblin

@zatnosk
>There is no freedom without democracy.

I want to take exception to that

tSatty Feb 2, 2018

@a_breakin_glass in that case, I think we either disagree on the definition of freedom or the definition of democracy.

@a_breakin_glass @zatnosk me too, although i'm speaking from experience and not from some theoretical framework that Smart People use

any critique of democracy which involves oppressed groups, seems to degenerate into some form of No True Scotsman fallacy

@kiilas @a_breakin_glass I'm curious to how you think we can protect the rights of minorities without democracy.

Democracy, to me, is when "the people" make the rules. And yes, of course that definition includes plenty of bad systems, such as the current democracy in USA.
But that doesn't mean all democracy is bad and unable to protect minority freedom.

@zatnosk @a_breakin_glass in exactly the same way as with democracy, but without the burden of having to please the majority (whichever views it may happen to hold at the time)

"the people" are not qualified to make the rules, as evidenced by millenia of human history

nearly all the famous and quoted thinkers behind democracy were privileged people who did next to fuck all to advance the causes of oppressed people during their lifetimes, or did so very selectively

avocado goblin Feb 3, 2018

@kiilas @zatnosk millennia of human history doesn't show that

@a_breakin_glass @zatnosk name a historical democratic state with no institutional oppression

@kiilas @a_breakin_glass that would only show that none of the tested forms of democracy can instantly remove injustice from an existing society.

If we can accept that it's a movement spanning decades or centuries, then I think Sweden is doing pretty good as a democratic state slowly decreasing injustice.

Any governing method can't do it on it's own, we have to have culture and education aligned also, if we want to eradicate injustice.

avocado goblin Feb 3, 2018

@zatnosk @kiilas
what if governing cannot remove oppression by definition? ;)

@a_breakin_glass @kiilas then we should build a democratic system that works without government.
Democracy doesn't require government. Doesn't change my initial point that (some form of) democracy is needed to avoid injustice and ensure freedom.

@zatnosk @a_breakin_glass by all means please do, but i'd rather live in a society where people don't need a system to support each other

@a_breakin_glass @zatnosk well, we both know the answer to that

@zatnosk @a_breakin_glass why is democracy succeeding (not that i think it is, just for the sake of the argument) in Sweden, but not in other countries with similar systems?

is it because people in Sweden are more aware of social issues, because they're happier, wealthier, haven't been screwed up in the past century by wars/crises (unlike most of the western world)?

can democracy handle a more generic case, or just a case which essentially handles itself?

@kiilas @a_breakin_glass
> in exactly the same way as with democracy, but without the burden of having to please the majority

But what makes that "not democracy" instead of "a new form of democracy"?

Representational democracy is only one form. Anarchic unions governing local communities and collaborating with other communities is also a form of democracy. Digital mobrule where everyone gets one vote on every subject is also a (bad) form of democracy.