@dirb I dont even use it (any more) and its *still* a total pain in the bum Try building almost any window manager / desktop environment or rather anything thats a daemon or nonsense that insists on using its login mechanism ... Where do I send the bill for the hours and angst ? Also no way this crap goes on my containers or on embedded or elderly gear... OR I could just drink the soma and grow fat and docile :) OR I'm making the jump to netbsd so I can just write.