dick_turpin 
@thelovebug <font size="42">DAVE!</font>
Dave Lee (moved to @@[email protected] Blimey, never expected to see you back on the "federated" web! đ
@thelovebug Federated web, Ha! Nothings changed. You cant search across instances, you cant talk to other services and there's still no bloody unicorns!
HallÄ Kitteh@dickturpin @thelovebug Federation without every conceivable feature is still federation, you can't force other services to interoperate with you, and the unicorns are over at http://rainbowdash.net/ .
@clacke It's not about force it's about communication. I will never understand people claiming bragging rites of "Federation" when the technology is in fact a Walled Garden a bit like Apple. True freedom is communication across ALL services, the point being, you are FREE to choose what service you like to talk to your friends.
@thelovebug I'm now off to kick a baby otter becuase of you. #OldArguements
Luke@dickturpin it feels like you're knocking the services that already offer the possibility to federate rather than the services that don't.
@luke @dickturpin Exactly. It's a walled garden if you're trying to keep people out, not if you're reaching out a hand and the others are not interested.
@dickturpin @luke Who wants to keep people out? Twitter stopped offering even RSS.
@dickturpin @luke What's the difference between Mastodon and GNU Social?
There's a plugin for individual users to send their own Twitter posts to GNU Social and vice versa, and I see my OStatus posts on Twitter sometimes, when such users interact with my posts, but there is no way for an arbitrary OStatus user without a Twitter account to follow an arbitrary Twitter user, and there never will be, unless Twitter decides it's dying and joins the free world in a last attempt to stay relevant.
If it's not in Twitter's, Google's and Facebook's interest to loosen their control of users, any project that tries to be more open than them is a sham according to you, because the project can't interoperate with the data of the silos.
With that definition of "Federation", why are we even here? It's doomed from the beginning. We're here because:
1) We think federating with people who want to federate with us is meaningful in itself, and we accept not to wait for change over which we have no power.
or
2) We believe that if we do this for another couple of decades, the silos will eventually die, and we will have the Perfect Federation.
I'm here for (1). I reject your insisting on the Perfect Federation and will take what I can get. Why are you here?
There's a plugin for individual users to send their own Twitter posts to GNU Social and vice versa, and I see my OStatus posts on Twitter sometimes, when such users interact with my posts, but there is no way for an arbitrary OStatus user without a Twitter account to follow an arbitrary Twitter user, and there never will be, unless Twitter decides it's dying and joins the free world in a last attempt to stay relevant.
If it's not in Twitter's, Google's and Facebook's interest to loosen their control of users, any project that tries to be more open than them is a sham according to you, because the project can't interoperate with the data of the silos.
With that definition of "Federation", why are we even here? It's doomed from the beginning. We're here because:
1) We think federating with people who want to federate with us is meaningful in itself, and we accept not to wait for change over which we have no power.
or
2) We believe that if we do this for another couple of decades, the silos will eventually die, and we will have the Perfect Federation.
I'm here for (1). I reject your insisting on the Perfect Federation and will take what I can get. Why are you here?
@clacke @luke You should never "Take what you can get" you should always demand more. If mankind had of accepted what they can get we'd still think the earth was flat.
Why am I here? I think the question is "Why are you following me?" If I irritate you that much just unfollow me, I'm sure I'll survive. :-)
@dickturpin @luke Oh no, I miss being irritated by you, it helps me understand myself and others. Also it builds character. :-)
So if this is not federation because you can't follow all of online mankind, what should we call it? Proto-federated? Pre-federated?
The term has been used decades ago for just one Microsoft Active Directory domain cross-certifying the root of another, by mutual agreement. I don't see how it's any less relevant to opportunistic federation between open servers on an open internet.
I'm not saying we should be satisfied, I'm just saying that "federate" is a useful word and to build a big system we need to start with a small one. And focus on the things we *can* change, like helping the OStatus network grow and making the tools more useful.
Saying that the network's ideals have failed because other networks aren't joining is doing neither of that.
So if this is not federation because you can't follow all of online mankind, what should we call it? Proto-federated? Pre-federated?
The term has been used decades ago for just one Microsoft Active Directory domain cross-certifying the root of another, by mutual agreement. I don't see how it's any less relevant to opportunistic federation between open servers on an open internet.
I'm not saying we should be satisfied, I'm just saying that "federate" is a useful word and to build a big system we need to start with a small one. And focus on the things we *can* change, like helping the OStatus network grow and making the tools more useful.
Saying that the network's ideals have failed because other networks aren't joining is doing neither of that.
@clacke @luke So in principle I'm not disagreeing with you. What I do disagree with is the usage of the name Federated as a banner for why this type of service is better than say Twitter. I fully accept that within its own group it is Federated but in terms of the web it is not. It's a mute point but I'm pedantic like that. As someone in my timeline said "It's just easier to call it Federated, people understand that."
@dickturpin @luke This type of service is better, because you can set up your own server and still talk to everyone else who are using the same protocol. That is because the protocol is federated.
Nobody [LinuxWalt (@lnxw48a1)]@dickturpin Which Mastodon service? There are >1,000 mastodon servers in addition to the GS / PA / Friendica servers in the #Fediverse.